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Episode 1919
Gangs in Durham
Brown: Natalie Bullock Brown, host
Jacobs: Teddy Jacobs, director of Welcome to Durham
Conrad: Courtney Conrad, producer of Welcome to Durham
Dunford: Martina Dunford, director, New Horizons Alternative Program
Glass: Detective Hunter Glass, Fayetteville Police Department, North Carolina Gangs Investigators Association
Brown: So you think gangs are only a problem in big cities; apparently not. A new film suggests that Durham has a gang problem that is much bigger than any of us know. Tonight we'll get the 411 on gang activity from the film's producers and law enforcement, on Black Issues Forum
Voiceover: This program was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV from viewers like you. Thank you.
[THEME MUSIC]
Brown: Good evening everyone, I'm Natalie Bullock Brown. Welcome to Black Issues Forum. According to a recent News and Observer article, gangs have existed in North Carolina, specifically in the Triangle, for decades, but in recent years the level of gang activity in Durham in particular has escalated dramatically. Today, according to the N&O, police say they have documented about 135 gangs and their subsets in Durham, and they know of 412 verified gang members in the city, some as young as 11 years of age. These facts are illustrated in the gritty documentary produced and directed by tonight's guests. We have with us one of the producers of Welcome to Durham, Courtney Conrad. Both he and coproducer Cicero Leek are actually newcomers to filmmaking. We also have Teddy Jacobs, director of Welcome to Durham. Thanks both of you for coming on Black Issues Forum. Now, I want to start off with Courtney and ask you what motivated you and Cicero to even tell this story and to tell it visually?
Conrad: Well, in the summer of 2003, we started a record label, RDU919 Music Group, and the Welcome to Durham project was our first project, being that we wanted to do a film and a soundtrack. So that's how it came about.
Brown: Well what was it about gangs? I mean, what was it about gangs and gang activity in Durham that made you think, you know, we really need to do something on this?
Conrad: The film actually was inspired by a newspaper article that I found in the paper, and it had FBI reports, giving stats about Durham, compared to the United States, basically, on the same size cities as Durham. And I wanted to go into why those numbers were those numbers, and the film just turned out to be gang heavy, it's not really all about gangs, but it's like since a lot of the young people are joining gangs and it's taking over the schools and stuff like that, like we just started coming across a lot of gang members.
Brown: Thank you. Teddy, what were your main objectives in telling the story as a director?
Jacobs: Basically just to show how easy it is to get wrapped up in it, and kind of put a face on it. Because if you hear-like I'm from California and you hear gang violence on the news and you kind of think, okay, these are monsters and not just average people, okay? And I've had family and stuff like wrapped up in it, you know, down by association, whatever. And you kind of need to let these people know that these are people that need help, they're not just people that just want to go out and do this all the time, you've got a certain group that have to do it to survive and you've got some people that actually, a small group, that really do want to do it, but you need to show, okay, put a face on these people, these are people that need help.
Brown: So they're not necessarily all predators.
Jacobs: They're not all predators, exactly.
Brown: To both of you, I know that the film has gotten tremendous response. Courtney, you start off first, what kind of response has it received, has it been all good, some bad, critical, what?
Conrad: It has been very controversial. Some good, some bad. One of the most important things about the film that people really didn't like, they didn't like the name, that we named it Welcome to Durham. They thought that we would make the city look bad, and things like that.
Brown: Let me just ask you, is it because when you say "welcome to Durham" and your film is about gang members, that what you're saying is that gangs-Durham is about gangs; gang activity is prevalent in this city and people don't really know that?
Conrad: I feel like they didn't want us to show that side of Durham, you know, what's really going on. And we chose that name for that reason because we wanted to open some eyes and catch the attention of a lot of people, and it did that.
Brown: I'm sure, and Teddy, have you heard things-or how have people responded to the film?
Jacobs: Well, older blacks or whatever, would usually come up and like a pat on the back, thanks for shedding light on some of these subjects that people weren't really trying to help. So I get pretty much, I mean, most of the reaction is positive. Thanks for actually putting this out there and letting people see what's really going on.
Brown: Well one of the things that I've heard and read that is I guess negative, is that some people say that the film glorifies gang culture. What would you say to that, Courtney?
Conrad: The film-it doesn't do that. For the most part we have people speaking on the issues, we have a lot of gang members talking about how they-some of them don't want to do it but they do it. And the thing about our film and about the situation in Durham is like, it's new, and the guys are so young. And they're so new that we was able to go film guys with guns and stuff like that. You know, if it was much more advanced and these people didn't kill a whole bunch of people and stuff like that, I don't think we would have been able to film them, and things like that. So being that it was so new and we caught it at the right time, we were able to capture what we did.
Brown: It's remarkable that you were even able to even get this side of Durham's culture on film. What did the gang members-how did they feel about you approaching them and saying, "Look, we're doing this film we want to capture you on camera with your guns, talk about what you do."-I mean, what was they're response?
Conrad: For the most part, a lot of the guys, we kind of knew and we deal with music a lot. I've been on the radio for the last ten years, and a lot guys, like, into music, they want to rap and stuff like that. So maybe like two years ago it was the same guy, but he wasn't in a gang yet. So now he's in a gang, so we still had those relationships, and we were lucky. A lot of other people we didn't know, but some of them were happy to do it. They wanted people to hear their story.
Brown: Gotcha. Teddy, any dangers in filming this? Was it because you knew some of the gang members, was it just pretty much smooth sailing, or were you in trouble sometimes?
Jacobs: Well actually there was just a few-I mean, like you'd have the guns showing, have ideas of things-like Murphy's Law, a gun might pop off, shoot you while they're showing you their gun, whatever. Maybe a rival gang might drive by. But I mean, those are odds, and it's just like playing a lottery. You want to go in here and tell the story, so it's kind of like, okay, I'll take this chance, I'll take this odd. I mean, it's probably like 1 in 50, 1 in 1,000 that you actually run into another gang coming through while you're there.
Brown: So for the most part, you would say.
Jacobs: Yeah, we felt like we were pretty safe.
Brown: Okay, Courtney, what was the most shocking thing, I guess, that maybe people felt the documentary reveals, the things that they didn't know?
Conrad: A lot of people didn't know really anything. They didn't know that these kids. A lot of kids are involved in this and the fact that they do have guns, the fact that a lot of them are shot, I think they were pretty shocked to see the kids.
Brown: And when you say kids, how old are we talking about?
Conrad: We're talking like 10, 11, 12, 13; you know, teenagers, mostly teenagers. And that's the big thing about our gang problem. Like we have so-called OGs here, and it ain't like California where they're older; a lot of these OGs are like 17 years old.
Brown: And an OG is?
Conrad: Original Gangster.
Brown: Which means that.
Conrad: That they run their situation, like they're set in their neighborhood, so they're in charge. So you basically have got a teenager telling other people younger than them, to do things. So that's like the most shocking thing that they're so young. It's not really older guys.
Brown: Right. Well Teddy, how are you guys using the documentary and it's popularity to help control gang activity, or just manage it?
Jacobs: Basically just putting the message out there. I'm not going to say like a scare tactic; it's just informative, informing the kids, you know what I mean? And when we were editing it, that was one of the big things, we didn't want to make it so older people would see it; we wanted to kind of keep-that might be why they're kind of glorifying and saying we're glorifying, because we put the younger music in there to keep the younger audience in tune with it. Not to drive them away, but basically just to inform these people. And that's our biggest thing, to kind of-information is what's going to stop people from doing. You're going to get a kid, okay, now he has an option, he doesn't have to listen to the OG that's 15, 16, saying hey, let's go out and make this cake, this is the only way you're going to be able to do it; I mean, nothing is going to happen to you. Now you've got a movie out here that they might want to see and it's going to say, okay, they're going to put something in their head now, okay? It's dangerous out there. They can't find another route.
Brown: Gotcha. And I understand that you guys have been invited, or the film has been invited, to some reputable film festivals. Tell us about that, Courtney.
Conrad: Right. We're actually headed this weekend to a film festival in New York, and then another one after that in southeast Miami, The American Black Film Festival, and the New York Independent Film Festival. And we're just taking it national, you know.
Brown: When you first did the film, when you first came up with the idea to do it, did you ever think that it would be received in the way that it has been, especially these film festivals that are nationally known, did you think that that would happen?
Conrad: No, I had no idea. The whole project, I had no idea that things would take off the way they are. But the film is such an accurate picture of what's really going on, like young kids; it really doesn't have to be Durham, it could be any city in the whole state, or anywhere in the United States, but the things that young kids are doing and getting involved with now, because of family issues, wanting to be a part of something. You name it, it's a whole bunch of reasons. But it's an accurate picture; we're not glorifying it. And the fact that it's real, like a lot of people are scared of that.
Brown: And Teddy, I understand that beyond what you're doing locally to promote the film and expose young people to the realities of gang activity, and beyond the film festivals, that you guys are traveling with the film to try and spread the word; where are you going?
Jacobs: Well, right now my next move is to New York with the film festival, and we're also doing-these guys RDU919, they're doing a tour, basically they're going through hoods and doing cookouts. And I think that's wonderful, because now you have all these people that don't know each other getting together for something, where they can mingle and meet each other, not in a confrontational type atmosphere, like okay, we're going to relax, listen to some music, play some basketball, eat some food. Now these people will know each other when they see each other on the street, and not stand so much as a rival atmosphere. Even the kids that aren't in the gangs now, if they're at these cookouts, they're less likely to be in, I guess, a confrontational setting again. Because it's like "Okay, I met him, we're on a good basis. We ate together, play some ball, he's a good dude. I'm not just going to pop, I don't know him."
Brown: So what they're doing with these cookouts, and this tour is like awesome because now they're bringing the communities back together. The last one we were at, I think it was Cornwallis, the older cats, like the 40 and 50 year old cats there, it was like man, this is what we need. We used to have this back in the day when everybody would come back out here and hang out. The community would gather, and so it's like where did it go? These guys are bringing it back, and that's who we're doing, so just loving it.
Brown: Great, thank you. Well, we've been talking with Courtney Conrad and Teddy Jacobs about their debut film, Welcome to Durham, a documentary that is coming-well, it was produced in Durham and is going to the New York Film Festival and the American Black Festival in Miami Beach. We're going to look at a little bit from the film. Take a look.
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
F: Durham has really changed over the years. Back in the day, your kids could come out and play; now you've got to be out here with your kids.
M: We have the Bloods, the Crips, the _____ Gangsters, H ____ Gangsters, to name a few.
M: See, I'm from the south, I ____ the south; a nigger got [BLEEPED OUT] blood, I banged on him. A nigger disrespect the South, we bang on him, that's how we _____.
M: There's two ways out of this gang ____: dead and jail. So like, that's the facts.
M: Hustling, ______, that's all I do. Ain't trying to do it for the rest of my life though, with this gang ____, _____ for me, you need to come to this hood, it's the southside, we go ahead and let him have it.
M: You got to get that payment _____, everybody else say it's about that green.
M: That's they're business, that's how they make their money, is through drugs and prostitution, extortion, strong-arm robbery; to do those things you've got to have some tools of the trade, and guns would be the tools of their trade.
M: The only thing, I could see if I got shot with some small-you know what I'm saying?-but damn, the first time getting hit and you get two times with a damn Mossberg pump.
F: You can't even go to the basketball court, I mean, anything could happen. You never know. He might go to the court, I might hear a shot, you know. I mean, Durham is wild, yo.
M: Yeah, it's become an issue here recently, and it's on the rise.
M: Robbing, shooting, _____ niggers are banging crazy _______.
M: _____ get a whole lot worse, a whole lot.
[END CLIP]
Brown: We'll have information at the close of the program on how you can learn more about our guests' statewide efforts to spread the truth about gang life. Now that light has been shed on the problem, what can be done about it? I'd like to welcome two more guests to the program: Martina Dunford is the founder and director of New Horizons Alternative Program in Durham, and works very effectively with troubled youth. Also Hunter Glass, a detective with the Fayetteville Police Department, and member of the North Carolina Gangs Investigators Association. And we also have again with us, Courtney Conrad, one of the producers of the film, Welcome to Durham. Thank you to all of you for being with us. Martina, let me start with you. Now, although we didn't see you in the clip, I understand that in the documentary, you talk about the need for teachers, parents and adults to not only understand the needs of the kids that they're dealing with, but also get some sort of training to steer them away from gangs. But is training really useful? I mean, can you train someone to deal with a young person who is involved in a gang?
Dunford: Unfortunately, I don't think so, at this point. Teaching was one of the most prominent possessions back in the day, and it was a position that people held with honor and prestige, and you got that behind it; in addition to, it was-you could take care of your family. It was a money situation. Today, that's so far different than what it used to be, and if you're going to work in an area or field to help students and children to move to another level, who are experiencing the things that they're experiencing today, it has to be a true calling from God, almost-you would go in there every day to deal with these situations, because they're different every day. And when you get a different set of children, like the ones we get in our program, with these different kids come different issues, when they're coming from different communities. So to say that you can just go out and teach someone to like somebody, that's not a fact, that's not a true statement. I don't think-I don't believe it can happen that way.
Brown: Well, Detective Glass, how long have you worked with the North Carolina Gangs Investigator Association, and what sort of conclusions have you come up with about gang activity statewide?
Glass: Now, the North Carolina Gang Investigators Association was started in the late '90s by Lieutenant Bridgeman, and Ernest Cuthbertson and a few others. Now, I personally have been working with gangs on a regular basis now for five years. I've been involved dealing with them since my career started in the early '90s. And the Gang Investigators Association is an association that was designed by police officers across the state who were having issues. We weren't able to get a lot of people on board at first.
Brown: But what have you, through your work with the Association, and also just your experience as a police detective, what can you tell our viewers about gang activity statewide, specifically in Fayetteville since that's where you hail from; Durham, Greensboro; you know, our urban centers?
Glass: In some of our more major cities, we have seen a rapid growth though, especially-it's amazing, I know that it's not because we started five years ago, but we have just noticed a stronger and stronger growth. Durham has had a very strong rise in gangs. We've had gangs in Fayetteville for many, many years, and we were very fortunate that the City was able to understand and the Police department was able to start a gang unit back in '93. So we have seen gangs; gangs have been here since before '93. They have been here for many, many years. We are seeing a larger, and larger growth. It's becoming much more popular amongst our youth, across North Carolina we're seeing a large increase in most of our major cities: Charlotte, Durham, Raleigh has been experiencing problems; Fayetteville we've accepted for a long time; Wilmington. And we've noticed that because when we first started out our association, we would ask people to come to the meetings; the only people who usually showed up were Durham, Fayetteville, maybe Wilmington. And we couldn't get a lot of other people. But since that has started, in five years, when we have our conferences we're literally sold out. People are coming from across the state requesting information, training. So obviously it's out there.
Brown: Well, Courtney-and I'm going to ask this to all of you, but I'd like to start with you first. Do you think that gangs are something that are here to stay? Can they be eliminated or do we simply-not simply, but is it a matter of managing them, is that all that we can hope to do at this point?
Conrad: I think gangs, they're going to be here forever. I think they can bring you down or not, but it's always going to be here.
Brown: And why do you say "they're always going to be here"; what about them is so enduring?
Conrad: Because the way that the people feel about the gangs, that it's like family, and I think it's too deep now, and the kids, they'll just grow up, and people will get initiated in these gangs every week, and the gangs are in jails. I just don't see it stopping, _____ is here.
Brown: Thank you. Martina?
Dunford: Yeah, I agree with Courtney, that they're going to be around for a while, until we recognize the root needs and the problems, the root problems that occur and the reasons why the kids are joining the gangs. And alleviate, eliminate those issues, there's going to always be this idea of wanting to belong when you are not loved and given the idea, things that you need to exist in the world: love, food, money, clothing. And if you're not given those things, you're going to search for them someplace. So economically, if we don't prepare and provide job opportunities and ways to create alternative ways for kids to make money or families to survive, they're going to always-and as the person stated in the video, was that we're going to eat, we are going to have to eat. So whatever mechanism it takes to feed myself, my family, I'm going to make that happen. So as long as those ills continue to exist, you're going to continue to receive the effect from the cause.
Brown: Thank you. And Detective Glass, what would you say?
Glass: I agree. I do believe that there can be an end to it. In the past we've had groups like the Klan and stuff, which are not exactly acceptable in society anymore; it's all behavioral modification. But they're going to be here for a very long time. They'll be here forever. There's been gangs in the past, going back to the bear clans of the caveman days; it's just a part of society. How we contour it, and if we can show alternative ways.our biggest battle is the fact that it is a "we-ism" problem and we live in a "me-ism" society, so people don't accept other things as their problem until it affects them directly.
Brown: Well Martina, you deal directly with kids, and it seems like you're trying to work with them to stem this tide of gang initiation involvement activity. What's the likelihood that-or tell me how successful are you in getting kids to see that there is another way, other than getting involved in a gang?
Dunford: Well, I think we've been very successful. If we are even able to get the message to kids, and a lot of times what we say is often that we're planting seeds, and these are seeds that have never been planted before, because we as a society, I don't know how we got to a place where we started letting kids dictate to us what's right and what's wrong, in our households, in our streets, in our malls and our community. And when they got to a point where they were able to make decisions and we were justifying the decisions, then it got even bigger. So what we do is, we are real, we just tell them exactly what is right and what is wrong, and I don't cut corners with them. What's right in 2004 and wrong, it was wrong in 1956 and 1957; it's the way that we have to help them to understand what's right and what's wrong. When they come to us, they're 14 and 15 years old, embedded with whatever they've been accustomed to in their environment, so we have to figure out a way and be given a time frame to change those things around. And sometimes that's two to three months before a kid really understands and re-acclimates him from that system that he's been accustomed to, that's gotten him where he's at, but just plainly saying to him what mothers need to say to children, period: What you're doing is wrong. And helping them to see where the wrong is. And once you do that and they recognize it, and it goes like a light bulb goes off, and they go, "Oh, really?" and they start recognizing the connection to what we're seeing, to the lifestyle that they're living and the lifestyle that could possibly happen for them.
Brown: Let me just end with Detective Glass; I'm going to give you the last word. What can viewers do?
Glass: Recognize, just take a big dose of reality when you wake up in the morning, when you take your vitamin, take that reality pill also. You need to wake up, you need to speak to your kids. There's an old saying that it takes a village to raise a child, the deal is, the United States, the world, is a village, and it takes every one of us to raise that child, don't turn anybody away.
Brown: Thank you very much. I'd like to thank all of our guests for sharing their insights with us this evening. If you'd like to learn more about their work or about controlling gang-related crime in North Carolina, please visit the Black Issues Forum web site at www.unctv.org/bif. Or call us on the BIF line at 919-549-7167. Be sure to join Black Issues Forum each Friday night at 9:30. I'm Natalie Bullock Brown reminding you to be encouraged, no matter what. Good night.
[THEME MUSIC]
Voiceover: This program was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV from viewers like you. Thank you.
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