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Episode #1924
50 Years After Brown
Lewis: Mitchell Lewis, host
Benson: Ella Arrington Williams Benson
Warren: Marcia Warren
Sellars: Harold Sellars
Lewis: Good evening everyone and welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Mitchell Lewis. In tonight's special edition of Black Issues Forum, we take time to honor the 50th anniversary of the May 17, 1954, Brown vs. Board of Education decision. In that year, no doubt, many thanks were given to the Supreme Court justices, and legal minds that brought to bear the Brown decision. Perhaps it was imagined that one day in the future, the fortunate black students and teachers who experienced education in racially integrated schools, would share stories of gratitude for the quality, equal treatment, they experienced as a result of integration. Is that really their sentiment? Tonight, we have an opportunity to hear from just a few of those very individuals. I'd like to introduce first, Ella Arrington Williams Benson, author of Both Sides of the Track¸ and the second edition, Both Sides of the Track II, Recollections of Cary, North Carolina. She taught at Cary Colored Elementary School during segregation, and then in the white schools in Cary when forced integration began. Also Marcia Warren, a native of Ohio who moved to North Carolina, taught at George Watts School in Durham, and taught the school's first and only racially integrated class in 1962. And Harold Sellars, born and raised in North Carolina and was among the first group of students to integrate Vass's Lakeview Elementary during his eighth grade year in Moore County. And to all of you, welcome to Black Issues Forum.
Several: Thank you.
Lewis: And just so we make sure that we get this straight, I'll be calling you by your first names, and not out of disrespect, but just so we can roll along here. But Harold, I'll start off with you; tell me what the relationship was like in your community between blacks and whites in Moore County.
Sellars: I grew up in Vass, as you know, and Vass was a small mill town, about 700 people. So just about everyone knew everyone else, so there was really no real tension or anything at all, relative to the blacks and whites within the community. Got along quite well.
Lewis: Marcia, you coming from Ohio in this situation, why do you think that you were chosen to teach the first integrated class at George Watts School in Durham.
Warren: I really don't know the answer to that for sure, but what I always thought at the time, and in recollecting it later, I think it was because I was from the North. I was very young, I wasn't even 24 yet. My husband was in school and I had a little child, a baby at home. And I had come from Ohio, gone through schools in Dayton, Ohio, and Miami University; and both of those schools were integrated. We did go to school with black children. However, I learned on two very upsetting times when I realized that the situation for black students was not the same as mine. And one of them was being a leader in the Y Teen group with a young woman, and she was black, and my mother was going to drive us to the meeting, which was going to be out of town. And my mother said, "How about if we stop and have a picnic along the way?", which I thought was a wonderful idea. And it wasn't until many years later that I realized that Beverly wasn't allowed to eat in the restaurant. So I think that my experience, the only thing I know to say is that maybe my experience, having come from integrated schools and being a young person, that I would be selected to take that role.
Lewis: Ella, how did you find out that you would be changing schools at that time?
Benson: Our principal at the time was Mr. Walters, he held a teacher meeting, and he said that the teachers who were at the school would have to be transferred to the integrated schools in the community, and some of the fifth grade teachers would be able to stay at our school, because it was going to become a sixth grade center. And he also named the schools that the teachers from Decatur Elementary Colored School would be transferred to. And so I wanted this new school, because it was brand new. And so he listened to each one of us as we forced our opinions, but later on, he called me into his office and he knew I was some kid _____, done a great job, he thought. And he suggested to me not to go to that school. He said it's new, yes, and it's a nice school. And the reason was that the principal was very biased and he was prejudiced, and he suggested to me to go Briarcliff, to Mrs. Fox who was a Caryite, she new me. And so I'm so happy I made the decision to go with her.
Lewis: Now, this is a question for both you and Marcia. Once you got into the classroom, what was it like, say, that first day teaching, a racially mixed group? Marcia, I'll start off with you.
Warren: You know, it was a hard time for everybody in those days. 1961, 62, this was 1962. There were a lot of poor children, had a lot of kids in my class. I think there were 35 or 37 at one point, and I always liked to say, and I had no water in my room. So it was already a challenge. The two black children that I had, I remember very well, and I think they were-maybe I was the only white person that they had ever been associated with on a close basis. I've thought about that a lot. They were very respectful. There was a behavior problem with the boy child, and the girl was very sweet; she tried very hard. And she was suffering from the change. And the way I know that is, after she'd try real hard in the classroom and then we'd get out on the playground and the pressure was off, and she would get a terrible, terrible headache. And so I remember that about here. But there were just lots of needs in that classroom. There were children that came without shoes to that classroom. And so I had lots of challenges. So it was just two more children and we got along just fine.
Lewis: And that was black and white, as far as the.
Warren: The two black children, and then I had all these other little white children. And as I said, I had some very, very poor white children in that class.
Lewis: Ella, your situation was just a little bit different. Talk about that.
Benson: Well yes, I was born in Cary and first year that I had, integrated school, most all the students were basically Caryites. And so the parents knew me and it made it kind of easy. And the children used to tell me that my mother knew you when you were a little girl, and unfortunately to me, I only had one black student that year, and that student was the child of the janitor of the school. And I felt comfortable because children. in my mind, mirror the reflections of their parents, and the parents had already told them about me, and they knew me, so it made the whole situation a comfortable one. But there were other situations that were not as pleasant.
Lewis: Harold, I want to get you back in this conversation. What was it like for you, going to a school and being involved in mixed classes; what were some of the things you faced?
Sellars: I guess the biggest thing was not having as many fellow black students in the class with me. Back in that day, the homogenous grouping of the students.when I was in the all-black school, I remember my seventh grade we were all three classes, like 20-25 kids in a class. So I had my classmates that were performing at the same grade level I was, I thought. Then, all right, now the next year we go to this integrated school and they regroup, and you wonder what happened to all of my classmates that I thought was at my level; there is not as many in the class anymore. And this lower class seems to be over weighted with more black students, as opposed to the upper classes, a limited number of black students.
Lewis: Now, how far did you have to go in order to get to school?
Sellars: Well, when I was going to an all-black school, I used to ride the bus about 30-45 minutes a day, to get to school, and the same thing coming back home. Because I was taken out of my local community, which is the school was only about less than a mile away from me, so with integration, I can sleep a lot later in the morning, because it only took a couple of minutes to get to school.
Lewis: Now, for the three of you, share with us some of your most vivid memories or stories when it came to encountering the students. Any special stories? Marcia, I'll start off with you.
Warren: I told you about the little girl, and I believe her name was Constance, and how she was trying so hard, and what I didn't say before was, we didn't have public kindergarten in those days, but there would have been children in that classroom who would have had kindergarten, and so these two little children, the boy child and the girl child, neither of whom had had kindergarten, as I was saying, maybe I was the first white person they'd ever really been very close to. The boy was six years old, and he was the oldest of six children, and it was a situation that I really felt very bad about. He had a single mom, and she was trying hard, I know. And one day we were going to have a special party, and the momma needed for this little boy to come home and baby sit. And I was so upset about that, I got his cupcake and whatever together, so that he could take that home with him. But I'll never forget him going out of that classroom, to go home and baby sit with his little brothers and sisters. And I felt like that was so unfair. But I also understood that the mother needed some help at that time.
Lewis: Ella, any special stories with you?
Benson: Yes, not really the first day, but the second day. The second day of classes, I noticed this parent in the back of the classroom coming in. and you know, you really don't know the students that well at that particular time, although many of the parents knew me. So this parent was kind of moving around in the classroom, so finally she came up to my desk, and I asked her, could I help her? And she said-this parent had a PhD, she said my child has already had the material that you're giving her. And I said to the parent, I said, will you please wait until school starts. I said, it has not started yet. and so I said, who is your child? So she turned, looked over, and she pointed to this little girl. I said, she is the smartest child, one of the smartest children in my room. I said, the only thing we have done so far is just go through a few skills to see where, to start the children with. I said, well, wait until school starts and then you can come back and ask me some questions.
Lewis: Now, I have to be curious here, now is this a black student or a white student?
Benson: No, white. This is white. I only had one black student in my class, and he was a very good student. And the parents worked at the school as custodian help, and they always knew what was going on. But this, I think, was a parent who, with this education and this black teacher, now, she might know what she's doing, I've got to go and find out. I said, well wait until school starts. And believe it or not, at the end of the school year, I have it in my home now. You should see what she made for me. She said, you are the best teacher my child has ever had. I said, well at least you waited until school started.
Lewis: Well, how was it with you and your teachers in school?
Sellars: Well, I think, and I may have digressed just a little bit, having gone to the all-black school from grades 1-7, it was Pinckney High School at the time, in Carthage. In that preparation for the integration, I remember that year, the teachers worked with us. We polished-it was a daily thing to polish up on all of your mannerisms and your schoolwork, and being respectful, a lot of things of that nature. But we were given an extra dose of those sorts of things. And to prepare us for what we thought, that when we get to this integrated school, sitting beside the white kids, that we would have to catch up. Little did we know that once we got there, that wasn't the issue. We were a bit surprised to look over and see what they weren't able to do, but in certain minds, in the teachers' minds, I do feel like they made them think that they were maybe more prepared for us. I think because we knew we were going from all-black schools into the integrated school, that our teachers prepared us. I don't think the same thing happened on the other side, from an educational standpoint.
Lewis: Well, did you feel like you were considered as an important part of the class?
Sellars: That's a tough one. I think the attempt was to be made a part of the class. Many teachers did go out of their way, again, to pick a few, a chosen few, to be made examples, to give a few kudos to, I guess, you might want to call them. But I don't want to say that it was just total open arms, but it was acceptable, you could live with it.
Lewis: And back to the teachers here, Ella, did you get any type of, I guess, black or any type of negative treatment from, say, teachers, or perhaps administrators?
Benson: No, not.well.on the first day of school, maybe first or second, there were some teachers who came to the classroom and kind of looking over the classroom, because this is our first time black teachers are in the school. And I know this particular teacher, she pointed to certain students in my classroom to tell me who their parents were. This child is the child of a doctor, this, this, this.it just went on and on and on. And so I just looked at her and I listened to her. And I think I made the statement to her, I said, regardless what the parent is, or who the parent is, I said that parent can't teach third grade. I said, but I can. And you know, it was kind of like telling me how to treat the child, because this is a child that has a prominent position in a community. But see, I'd been dealing with prominent people all my life. So to me, color makes no difference; people are people, children are children. We're there to teach children, and that's what I was there for. And I know how to do that.
Lewis: And Marcia, someone coming from the North, to North Carolina, what type of challenges did you face?
Warren: Yeah, that was a challenge. And I'll have to say that I was a little leery too about coming to the South and knowing about the South, but we certainly, I felt some, from the segregation, some discrimination. We're talking about desegregation, some discrimination against myself personally, being from the North. My husband was a student at Duke and during the summer, he worked as the assistant to the building inspector for the City of Durham, and they'd go around, and we'd have to go to meetings sometimes with some pretty tough guys. And I'd go along, and at one point the man came over to me and said, "I understand you're named Warren, you Earl's kids?" And as I was saying to you earlier, I wish that I could have said to him, no, but I wish we were Earl's kids-meaning Earl Warren of course, our wonderful Supreme Court Justice. But I didn't say that, I was polite to him. But none of the teachers in the school, or none of the other parents that I can remember, discriminated against me at all, of being from the North.
Lewis: And once again, we are talking about the forced integration here. You had talked earlier, Harold, about being prepared versus the other students in the room; how was the interaction between you and the other students?
Sellars: It was.I wouldn't say.very cautious. Everybody had to get a chance to learn one another, and still being in the South, you didn't want to go too far in those relationships. Even at a young age, you could be in the class together. You would perform athletics together. But to develop a true friendship in a relationship, that didn't happen, and I don't think they were expected to have that childhood friend that you're going to carry on with you for the rest of your life. That didn't happen in the 60s, not for me.
Lewis: Now, a question for all of you, especially now since we're looking at the 50th year since Brown vs. Board of Education, do you feel that integration was really the best thing for America? Ella, start of with you.
Benson: Well, yes, for this reason: I think it was because there were some things that people learned that they did not know, because they had always said that the schools were separate but equal. That was a myth. And once schools were integrated, the first things that the counties, the school systems, whatever, started running to these black schools, remodeling, renovating, bringing in materials and new books and all those type things, that the children did not have before. Another thing about integration that I'm very pleased with, for black children's sakes, I was so sick of having the books in our classroom that had been used 5, 6, 7, 8 times, and they were discarded, old books discarded from the white schools. And at the end of the year, the children were expected to pay damage fee. Now, my first year of teaching, I went along with it. but the second year of teaching, I told my principal I refused to charge damage fee for books that were already damaged. And those children were not doing any harm to the books. You know, they were not damaging the book, so why pay for damages for old books? Now, those are some reason I have for why integration was a good thing. I also have reasons that it wasn't so good, because they got rid of black schools. I mean, the names of black schools, and they kind of like, the black schools did not exist. And many children graduated from black schools, and now they don't have ____ school. And then there are some schools that they discarded and pretended that they never existed. Cary is an example. That Cary Elementary Colored School, if you weren't born in Cary, you would think there was never a Cary Elementary Colored School downtown.
Lewis: And Marcia, because we're wrapping up pretty soon, Marcia, your thoughts.
Warren: Well I think we were all for desegregation, and we all believed it was wonderful, and I thought everything about it was wonderful, until recently when there was the 50th anniversary, I believe, of the Lincoln High School in Orange County, in Chapel Hill, which was the black school then, and when those folks came back and talked about some of the changes that had been made in their lives as a result of having to go into white schools and being discriminated against. And one person was saying, "You know, we went to the local school, and we went in our neighborhood, and everybody took care of us. And you couldn't get away with anything," they say. There'd be people looking out the window, and everyone was your mother and they felt so loved. And I had a new feeling about some of the really tragic things that happened as a result of integration. But absolutely, we did need to integrate and we do and I'm very pleased that my children got to go through integrated schools, and now my grandchildren.
Lewis: Harold?
Sellars: As I look at it, desegregation-integration, was something that had to be done, and it was the thing to do at the time. But it's like a person who is ill and a doctor prescribes you a medication, and you take it and you leave, but oh, by the way, let me tell you about these side effects that go along with it. And I don't think there was enough emphasis on the side effects, the things that we were giving up, having our own schools, having teachers that could relate to the students, not only for the color of their skin, but their background. They could give them guidance and support. So many students came along the way that could have been encouraged to go on to college and any other things that, it became a numbers issue. If there's only so many can go, the top 10%, the top 20%, well, now you might have fallen, for whatever reasons, down lower. And I know we're running out of time, but there's a lot of things about desegregation, the side effects of it, that we just didn't get a chance to really get into and tell people about, and warn them of.
Lewis: Well, we'll have to stop it right here, and thank you so very much for being with us. I'd like to thank Ella Arrington Williams Benson, Marcia Warren, and Harold Sellars for sharing their stories and views with us. If you'd like a transcript of tonight's show, visit us online at www.unctv.org/bif. And if you would like to tell us your comments or program suggestions, call us on the BIF line at 919-549-7167. Be sure to join Black Issues Forum each Friday night at 9:30 for more stimulating discussion. For Black Issues Forum, I'm Mitchell Lewis, good night.
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