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Episode #2019
Unlikely Survivors of Domestic Violence
Lewis: Mitchell Lewis, host
Bagley: Tanisha Michelle Bagley
Harris: Marcus Harris
Hicks: Kenn I. Hicks
Bagley: Square in the face, he looked me in the face and he said, "I'm going to tell daddy to take you in that room when he gets home to beat you."
Lewis: Sixteen years ago she was a teenager whose dream relationship became a living nightmare of human abuse. Today she's alive and fighting back by educating others about the reality of domestic violence. We'll share her story of courage and a side of domestic violence rarely heard. Next, on Black Issues Forum.
Voiceover: Funding for this program is made possible in part by UNC-TV members.
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Lewis: Good evening everyone and welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Mitchell Lewis. A lot of us probably think we know what domestic violence is, and what we'd do if ever confronted with it. Yet violence occurs at least once in two-thirds of all marriages. And an estimated 3 to 4 million American women are abused each year by their husbands or partners. Experts say education and awareness are key to prevention. Tonight we hope to provide you some keys with the testimonies of guests who have unfortunately learned by experience. Please note that tonight's discussion may contain explicit adult language and content that may not be appropriate for all viewers. I'd like to welcome tonight's guests. Tanisha Michelle Bagley is an 11-year domestic violence survivor. She's authored a compelling book based on her own life story entitled The Price of Love. And she is also founder of ENSHRINE, everyone needs support, health, respect, inspiration, nourishment and empowerment, a non-profit organization that provides housing and services for women and children victimized by domestic abuse and violence. Our second guest is also a survivor of domestic violence. Marcus Harris has also founded a non-profit called Lady Oya, which provides scholarships to domestic violence survivors pursuing their secondary education. And welcome to both of you.
All: Thank you.
Lewis: A little later in the program we'll talk by telephone to licensed clinical social worker Kenn Hicks, who's written a book titles The Eleven Building Blocks of Domestic Violence. He's also a certified domestic violence facilitator. Right now, let's learn more about our guests. And Tanisha, I'll start off with you and your story is so compelling because there-within this 30 minutes there's no way that we can justify and go through everything that you went through, but let's start by you-you met your husband, the two of you were friends in high school and you decided to become friends-girlfriend-boyfriend and then you took it to the next level, and then the abuse started. Tell the audience what happened.
Bagley: Well, actually what happened, like you said, we became friends and then we decided to introduce sex into our lives, and that was a year into the relationship, and it wasn't until after conceiving our first child and having a miscarriage, and after getting pretty much a death sentence, saying that if I got pregnant again within a year's time that I'd surely die due to a blood disorder from us having this child. And what happened was, I took that very serious and I thought that he took it serious too, but obviously he didn't, and one particular night he wanted me to lie to my mom and tell her that we were going to a party and that we'd be back, and really we weren't. What we were going to do was go and have sex again, because that's what he wanted, and I told him no. And after saying no, that's when he hit me for the very first time.
Lewis: And of course, according to the piece that we saw earlier that he hit you, and hit you in the face.
Bagley: Yes, slapped me in the face, open palm.
Lewis: And after this, then your parents came together and there was an intervention. What was the reaction of your relatives to this?
Bagley: Well you know, right after it happened, initially I thought it was my fault. You know, you going 11 years-actually 11 months into a relationship where no abuse was ever evident until this particular moment, and it was because I said no. So initially I thought it had to be my fault. If I had told him yes I would have never got hit, so from then on, everything was yes, yes, yes even though I meant no. And actually, after getting out of that car, you know, he told me what to do, pretty much prepped me, and it just so happened that I ran into my mother, thinking that I was going to sneak by her and get into the room and stay there all night, and she could still see his handprint across my face. And that's when she intervened and you know, called his parents and said, "Listen, this is it, now there's physical violence involved in this relationship, we're going to end this now." And I just didn't want to hear it.
Lewis: And as you said, you didn't want to hear it, you'd heard it from your parents, you even heard it from his parents at one point.
Bagley: Yes, mm-hm.
Lewis: People at school. Why did you-why did you not, say, see the danger that was going on?
Bagley: Because I loved him. And I tell people all the time that there's nothing wrong with loving someone. And, you know, I wasn't going to stop being who I was even though he changed. And that's part of the manipulation, like I said. Had I met him within 11 days and he came up and slapped me then I probably wouldn't have had nothing else to do with him, ever. But we had 11 months and some invested into this relationship whereas I never saw this type of abuse until I did something wrong. Whereas now I look in hindsight and I see, I didn't do anything wrong, that was just part of the manipulation. And so therefore, that's what led to the relationship that we had. And I wanted to stay because I so badly wanted to get that person that I fell in love with. I knew he was there, I just thought that I could pull him back out again, and I never could.
Lewis: And of course the title of your book is The Price of Love. What did you see as "love" during that period?
Bagley: You know, after the first year, now, once again looking back, there wasn't any love, there was no love there. It was more or less control, there was a lot of manipulation, there was a lot of jealousy, there was a lot of abuse, all forms of it, nothing that would indicate true love. And I know-a lot of people ask me, "Well, if you knew all of this, why did you stay?" And at that early age, you know, he instilled in me very early, that "If you leave me, I'll kill you." And I believed that, I truly believed that, because I saw a total different side of him that came out and I was afraid, I was afraid to leave him.
Lewis: Looking back on those years, was there anything that anybody could have said to you at that point, to say, "I've had enough and I should leave this person."
Bagley: No, because I had it coming from every angle, like I said, my parents, his parents at one point in time, my grandmother, I even had my mom's best friend at the time who stepped in and wanted to help me and unfortunately she got killed due to domestic violence. And you would think that would've been the biggest wakeup call ever, but it didn't, it didn't register that I was leading down that same path and that I should do something about my relationship. So really, there was nothing anybody could tell me. I think my fear of him and what I knew that he could ultimately do to me was more overpowering than anything anybody could have said, even my own parents, and that's scary.
Lewis: Marcus, let's bring you into the conversation. Now, your situation is slightly different. And you represent a situation where there's like 5% of males encounter abuse and you were dating someone for about a year. Tell us your story.
Harris: Well, I always start by saying that my story may not be as traumatic or as dramatic as a lot of other people who have been abused, but it was still domestic violence because-I got involved with this person very fast, and we didn't really get a chance to know each other very well, and then we ended up living together. And it was after we gotten established that I got to learn more about her and see more about her personality. And it was then that I found out that she had endured a lifetime of abuse. Started from when she was a child with her father and then from boyfriend after boyfriend, and what was coming out on me was just the result of what she had been through. So that was my first experience with domestic violence. And even though I didn't really recognize it at the time, I knew something was wrong. And so as she became more controlling over me because it wasn't so much physical, it was more verbal and emotional, psychological-but as she became more controlling over me, the reason that I stayed was like Tanisha was saying, because of how much I loved her and I wanted to help her, I knew something was wrong and I just wanted to do whatever I could to help make it right.
Lewis: I just want to make sure that I correct myself-5% of violent abuse cases are men. What was going through your mind? How did you-because you think of guys and the sort of macho image. What were some of the things that you were like, saying to yourself to try and stay into this relationship?
Harris: Well, for one thing, she was very charming, she was beautiful, she was very smart, very persuasive, but that also meant she could be very manipulative. And so, I wasn't thinking straight a lot of the time because I was being taken advantage of. I didn't realize it then. Again, becoming emotionally involved with somebody, there's a very fine line that can be crossed between caring about them and showing them love and actually being used by them. And that line got crossed with me when it came to her.
Lewis: Tanisha, what were some of the characteristics of your ex?
Bagley: Very similar to what Marcus said. I mean, very charming, good-looking man, you know, very smart, had high aspirations of becoming an attorney, a political science major, maybe NBA player because he was just that well in sports. And he used that intelligence, you know, for a young girl who-I probably at that time was searching for that male figure, I saw that to be a very positive thing, and I drew to that, and I-at first thought he was very conceited and I couldn't stand him, to tell you the truth. But I quickly said, "Hey, he has a lot of good qualities that would make a good husband, that would make a good man, that would be a decent provider." And so that negativity that I felt for him quickly changed into a positive. But once again, that's part of the manipulation, you know, they want you to see what they want you to see at first, and then eventually it'll come out. And that's what happened.
Lewis: And over the next 10 to 11 years you suffered not only physical abuse but other forms as well. And Marcus talked about the verbal abuse, were there other types of abuse you experienced?
Bagley: Yes, mental, emotional, financial, sexual. I dealt with all types of the abuse dealing with this man. Whatever you can think of, I dealt with it.
Lewis: Now, let's try and bring Kenn Hicks into the conversation. Kenn, in your experience, what have you seen the makeup of someone who is an abuser?
Hicks: Well, I'd like to start off and just mention that when we're growing up as little kids, we get spanked sometimes and then we get loved and we get spanked and we get loved, we get hurt. So when we get into adulthood, a lot of that is intertwined. Love, pain, hurt and all of that is intertwined just because somebody hit you, we still-as though they still might love us also. So dealing with all those emotions, one minute I hate him, next minute I love him, because that's how I possibly was growing up in that environment. So a lot of that is intertwined. Miss Bagley mentioned that as far as verbal and emotional abuse-the best batterers don't leave bruises, they don't have to, so she got slapped the first time, so after that she felt afraid of him and that's right, and he didn't have to slap and go on every time. The best batterers don't have to do that. The intimidation, the harassment, the-that power and control, they don't have to do it a whole lot of times, not the good ones.
Lewis: Okay, thank you. Now we'll come back to the studio to you, Tanisha. Now although you had gone through the abuse, you still decided to marry this person. And you talk about the abuse that was before and after, some of the physical, emotional, sexual abuse. Now there was a time that you broke away from it. What made you go back to him?
Bagley: Well, no really, when I broke away from him in '98, I stayed gone, I left him finally. I had a lot-there was lots of years where I wanted to leave. Even a year prior to '98 I wanted to leave him, there just was nowhere for me to go and so I stayed for an additional year. But as far as during high school and before we got married, you know, I left him once, and once again he came back and told me he'd changed and we did the flowers and the candy and "Oh, I'm so sorry." And I think I stayed gone for like two weeks. You know, that was the longest ever. And he came back into my life and I gave him another chance and therefore I didn't leave him again until after I had married him and had children and I left him in '98.
Lewis: Describe the situation where it was the turning point for you. What happened?
Bagley: There were so many. But the major one was the effect that it was having on my children. Prior to the abuse or before, in the beginning, they would always try to help me, they'd try to intervene, they'd go in and try to stop him from abusing me. And then it got so routine that he was beating me every day that they would sit and watch cartoons. And one of the major turning points was when I went to chastise my three-year-old son and he looked me in the face and told me he was going to tell daddy when he got home and tell him to take me in the room and beat me. And then I knew, if my three-year-old can look me in the face and say that, then what type of child am I raising, to think that abuse is okay? And after that I knew that I had to go.
Lewis: Marcus, sometimes, especially in certain households you hear the term "whatever is done in this house stays in the house." And sometimes there is-well there is a lot of secrecy involved, especially when it comes to violent abuse, whether it be physical or verbal. In your case, at first you didn't share your situation. Why was that?
Harris: Well, I was in denial first that I was being abused. People would tell me, look, just look at the signs, this is not right, we see what she's doing to you. I didn't believe it. All I kept telling myself was well, it's just something wrong, she has some emotional problems or she's been abused and nobody's been there for her. So I wouldn't be honest with myself to start with.
Lewis: And Kenn Hicks, we'll come back to you. Especially when it comes to the person who is being abused, what type of profile do you see? I understand that you have several categories, tell us about that.
Hicks: Okay, I had kind of broken down to levels of offenders. And the first level of offender is the lowest level, and that's with just verbal abuse. The person just commits verbal abuse in the home. The second level of offender is the person commits all types of abuses in the home except physical abuse. The third level of abuse I call-is called the level three, and they commit violence within the home. And then the fourth level, which is the worst level, the ones that I have been dealing with as far as parole is concerned, the ones that commit violence inside the home and outside the home. That means that they'll beat up and hurt anybody if they're a family member or not a family member, and that's the worst one. I also broke it down to levels of victims. Level one victim is verbal abuse only, she has only verbal in the home. The second level is all other abuses except physical abuse. The third abuse would be physical abuse and other abuses inside the home, and the fourth level of victim are the batterer victimizes her inside the home and outside the home.
Lewis: Is there a situation especially-does the abuse start as verbal abuse? Or how does that really start?
Hicks: It escalates. You know, the person kind of wants to get power control, they can just tell you something you constantly do it then they're fine. Then when you start saying "no" about things, that's when the-it starts as, you know, at a lower level then builds its way up. First they might start with, okay, kind of harassing you somewhat or name-calling. If that doesn't work then they go to another level. They may give you a push or shove. If that doesn't work then we go to maybe some physical violence. If the physical violence, you get comfortable with that, now they bring weapons into it. Now if weapons are brought into it and you're still there, then they start-then your children start. A victim won't get out unless there's a traumatic or devastating thing that goes on. He or she will probably deal with their family violence as their victim, but when their children are involved or their children start being harassed or also physically abused, then they step out of it. Or the person is really hurt and they have to go the hospital and somebody reports it. So it has to be some type of devastation to get that person out of the cycle of violence.
Lewis: Thank you Kenn, and Tanisha, that's what you were talking about earlier. Again, tell us what was the event, that final conflict that led you to go.
Bagley: You know, it's funny when you say that and when you ask that question because there were so many things that he did to me. You know, I've been kicked, I've been punched, I've had blackened eyes, fractured nose, busted lips, you know bruises, cuts with thrown knives, I've had it, you name it. You name it, I had it. But the turning point was when I went to get my hair done. And you know it's funny I can sit back and laugh at this now, you know, most people say "Are you kidding me?" But yeah, I went to get my hair done and I walked in the door, and the first thing he did was punch me in the back, I fell to the floor, my kids were standing there laughing at me, calling me names, pointing, he took a cup of water and threw it at me, all in my hair. And I guess after me being there for four hours and I couldn't believe I came home and he messed up this hairdo of mine. It was it, I walked out. I walked out and that was it, I never came back to him, after 11 years.
Lewis: Marcus, what was your final turning point?
Harris: Well, what happened to me was the abuse was taking a toll on my health, and I was losing a lot of weight, and I was getting sick more often, and we were living together at the time, and when I came home one day, I was really sick, I actually left work early. And she was there, but she wouldn't let me in. And she knew I was sick, she knew I wasn't feeling well, and that to me, it woke me up and said look, it's either my life or this, and I just couldn't do it anymore.
Lewis: And of course thank goodness for both of you. You have a happy ending. Tanisha, tell me, what's going on now with you?
Bagley: Other than the book and just getting out there and promoting it every single day, anywhere I'm needed, I'm there, I go and give speeches, seminars, I do book clubs, churches, anywhere. High schools, wherever I'm needed, I'm there to share my story. I'm taking proceeds of the book and opening a facility, ENSHRINE, to help battered women and children get out of the situation that they're in. So I've dedicated my life to this, this is all that I do, day and in day out. Ever since the book has been released in November of '05, I've been steadfast on just getting it out there and sharing it with the world.
Lewis: And Marcus, you also have an organization of your own, tell us about that.
Harris: Right, we have a non-profit organization, we try to provide assistance to domestic violence survivors but also promote awareness of domestic violence in general. And so we things-we're in the process of starting to do plays and skits about domestic violence that will give more detailed information about what it really looks like, sounds like, things like that.
Lewis: Tanisha, in your book there was the lady Whitney. How much of you is in Whitney in this book?
Bagley: I'm Whitney. That is Whitney. The only reason why I have the different names is just to protect the guilty and the innocent, period. That is my true life story, and that's me.
Lewis: Marcus, what would you say to men who may be going through this process? What type of advice would you have for them?
Harris: Not to be afraid to admit it, and that's a major thing with men, excuse me, just like me, I was in denial. But you have to first-if you're going to solve a problem, you have to admit what the problem is. And that's the biggest step.
Lewis: Tanisha, as far someone who is involved in this type of situation, how do you encourage a person to get out of it?
Bagley: You know, you have a 50/50 chance as far as I'm concerned. You either have the choice of staying in the relationship, whereas you can end up getting killed, your children are involved-especially if there's children involved because it's no longer about you. You know, you have those kids to think of. I'd rather you take the chance of leaving and getting the help that you need, because the help is out there. The police have been very supportive to me and I know to so many others. But the judicial system is out there, they're there to help you, and you need to go and get that help.
Lewis: And of course, you mentor young teenage girls. What are some of the trends that you are seeing among these young women, especially if they are involved in an abusive relationship?
Bagley: You know, it's happening much earlier than we think, and it's more or less the secrecy and the shame that comes with it. You know, a lot of girls feel like, well, when they tell an adult or tell someone about it, the first thing they hear is that, well, you're too fast or you brought this on yourself, or what did you do to make this happen to you? Instead of sitting down and realizing that she may not have done anything, that this just may be the society that we're living in and this is something that she has to deal with because she's a female or because you have this young man that's out here that feels like he can control this girl and do what he wants to do to her. And so we need to look at the root of the problem and see what it is that we can do to help stop it. Stop placing blame where it really doesn't need to be. So we need to make it comfortable for them to get out there and to be able to share it. Because I've had a lot of them share with me things that would make your head spin, really. And that parents need to know, and they need to stop being so naïve in thinking that it's not happening to their children, because it's happening more than you think.
Lewis: Marcus, is there any type of support out there for men going through domestic violence?
Harris: Yeah, there are plenty of support groups and there are plenty of counselors out there because I actually saw one when I came out of my situation. They may not be as well publicized as the ones for women but they are still out there.
Lewis: Now, Tanisha, as far as your situation, I believe that your husband is now out of prison for-ex-husband-is out of prison. What's the next step here for you?
Bagley: You know, I take it day by day. Because-and it never ends. That's the whole point that I'm trying to make by getting out and speaking and sharing my story. You know, he spent the last six years in prison. Who am I to say that was long enough for the 11 years that I had to deal with his abuse? No one can say that. But once they get out-you know, I have protective orders in place, I did everything that I could, the police were on my side, like I said, the courts were on my side, but that doesn't stop someone from doing what it is they want to do to you. And we all know that. People are dying every day due to domestic violence, so it's just me getting out there and showing that it never ends really. I have to still live with this man really being out there and no matter what he'll do, I don't know, we'll never know.
Lewis: And unfortunately I have to stop it here. Tanisha, Marcus, we thank you so very much for taking time and sharing your stories and continued success for both of you. There's so much more to learn about the issue of domestic violence and for certain we've only touched upon the events chronicled in Tanisha's compelling book, The Price of Love. For information on tonight's guests, their books or resources for those suffering or recovering from domestic violence, visit us online at www.unctv.org/bif or call us at 919-549-7167. You can also reach the national domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE, that's 1-800-799-7233. For Black Issues Forum, I'm Mitchell Lewis, thanks for watching. Good night.
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Voiceover: Funding for this program is made possible in part by UNC-TV members.
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