|
Episode #2024
Black Education Viewpoint
Bullock-Brown: We often hear from our political leaders about the need for funding to improve schools by way of smaller classrooms, bigger and better facilities and programs to help narrow the academic achievement gap. But what is needed to improve schools according to the people who work in them? Well, we will hear from African American educators who have worked and continue to work in the trenches of public education next on Black Issues Forum.
Voiceover: Funding for this program is made possible in part by UNC-TV members.
Lewis: Good evening everyone and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I am Natalie Bullock-Brown. A number of issues affect and reflect the success of African American students in public schools today. Testing standards, discipline in the classroom and teacher pay are a few of them. We often have an opportunity to hear from community leaders on these issues but tonight we will find out directly from African American educators what they believe are the most successful strategies and the areas of greatest need for attention and funding in order to improve education in North Carolina to ensure the success of more African American students. I would like to welcome two very esteemed guests; Dr. Delores Fogg is the former assistant superintendent of Guildford County Schools and the recently appointed principal of Carnage Middle School in Wake County. Dr. Fogg has worked as both a classroom teacher and in administration. We also have Henry Pankey who some of you may remember as the Joe Clark of North Carolina. He started out in public education in New York City, won high acclaim during his tenure as a principal at Durham Southern High and is now a speaker traveling throughout the country teaching other educators about his methods for success in classroom. Henry Pankey has also recently authored a book about these methods entitled Standing in the Shadows of Greatness.
Welcome to both of you. Now I would like to start off by just getting a general view of the, I guess the state of the classroom and the status of African American students in particular in the classroom. Dr. Fogg, what would you say?
Fogg: I would say, unfortunately we have a lot of-quite a few-African American students that are still struggling and as educators we are still finding ways to support these children and find ways to help them become very successful. So unfortunately we have made some progress-fortunately we have made some progress but unfortunately we still have some students that need something that we haven't found ways to give them.
Bullock-Brown: Mr. Pankey, would you agree?
Pankey: I would agree. African American students are doing much better but I think what we are concerned about is why is there such a big gap between student achievement with African American students and white students. And that is a concern. We are concerned about it.
Bullock-Brown: Well, have either of you or both of you heard anything in particular from teachers in the classroom? What might be there greatest concern for students? Dr. Fogg?
Fogg: One issue that we hear often from teachers is having discipline in the classroom and having a safe and orderly environment. That, I feel really stems from finding instructional practices that are going to help student feel successful because I really believe that those students who are feeling academic success really aren't having as many discipline issues. Teachers feel frustrated because with those discipline issues, trying to find those strategies that are going to help students be successful, those things are interlinked for teachers.
Bullock-Brown: Mr. Pankey?
Pankey: Discipline. Everywhere I go people talk about discipline, discipline, discipline. But we have to provide instruction that actively engages students and it has to be appropriate for where students are. When you have a classroom you may have students on four or five different levels so it is important to not just teach a lesson for one particular type of students. Students also have various learning styles. Disciple is an issue we are concerned about student achievement but we also need to remember some African American students are doing very, very well so many times we talk about student achievement when we look at black students and white students. But we need to look at what is the behavior of the high achieving African American students versus the low achievement of African American students. So maybe now we need to take a look at behavior and how much time is spent on homework? How much time is spent on doing book reports? What is the implication of discipline problems? What type of support do you have at home? So let's now compare African American students with African American students and I think we will find some answers.
Bullock-Brown: Well, I want to stay with this idea or this issue for a moment because I am wondering what are-as you said-what are them implications of this discipline issue or problem that teachers seem to be facing? I mean, what is the cause? Or what can be done about it?
Fogg: Well, you know one of the issues we face with discipline is that what are we going to do as educators? Because if we have a student who is experiencing and expressing extreme discipline issues we have to be concerned about the entire school. How are we going to keep the school safe? Sometimes we resort to hopefully as a last resort, suspending the student from school and we know that if a student is suspended from school, how can we educate them which spills over into that student becoming a potential drop-out problem. I agree with Mr. Pankey that we really do have to find where those successes have been with students and try to find ways that we can use maybe some of those strategies to help other students. Parents today are faced with many issues. Economically, some parents have to work two or three jobs and it is not that they don't care about their student but how can they be that person there that is going to help the student with the homework or hear about that child's day. Yet they are having to be forced to work two or three jobs just so that they can have a place for their child to live and for them to be in a safe environment. So those-it is bigger than just the educational system. It is a community issue.
Bullock-Brown: Sure.
Pankey: Let me add about disciple. When you talk about discipline people think about punishment. Go to a bust stop at any major school-big high school or elementary school, middle school. 50% of the students will have no notebook, no paper, no pencil and come to school. Think about it. No notebook, no paper, no pencil. Going into a classroom with no paper, no pencil, no homework. So when we talk about discipline lets look beyond what is punishment but let's look at behavior. Are you paying attention in class? Are you taking notes? Are you playing around and goofing off with your friends? Are you late to class? Are you absent? Or you sleep? So when I think in terms of discipline, I think in terms of being actively engaged in terms of appropriate discipline and inappropriate discipline. Inappropriate discipline to me is coming to school unprepared and not being actively engaged in teaching and the learning process.
Bullock-Brown: So you are talking about discipline not so much as a behavioral issue but as whether or not a student is actually self-controlled. Are they doing what they are supposed to be doing in the classroom and at home? Are they prepared?
Pankey: We know time on task increases student achievement. We know focus on instruction increases student achievement. Once you say the word discipline people become very defensive. And I think we really need to think it through and talk it through. What are you talking about when you say discipline? I am talking about the total behavior. Not whether or not you get a referral where you end up in ISS and OSS.
Bullock-Brown: Which are? What is ISS?
Pankey: ISS is in school suspension and OSS is out of school suspension. But what I am talking about is focus on learning. The only game in town now is learning. Student achievement, student achievement, student achievement. Not did you act up and did you get kicked out of school but are you focused on learning?
Bullock-Brown: Well, I understand that actually in terms of achievement the academic achievement gap has apparently been narrowing a little bit since 1996 according to test scores reported by the North Carolina Department of Public Instruction and Governor Easley has attributed the success to education reform, accountability and standards. Now would both of you say that program such as North Carolina's end of grade testing and the federal No Child Left Behind policy have anything to do with this narrowing of the gap? Dr. Fogg?
Fogg: First of all, just to examine differences between No Child Left Behind and North Carolina's ABC Program which is inclusive of EOGs, end of grade tests and end of course test. In North Carolina we have been looking at the achievement of students whether or not they are on grade level which is proficient or whether or not they are making growth, making adequate growth per year. And in North Carolina we have been looking at that for, as I said, a number of years. With President Bush's No Child Left Behind we really are disaggregating the data even further and at this No Child Left Behind really is an extension, a reauthorization of the elementary and secondary education act which has been around for a good while. With the difference there with No Child Left Behind is you have subgroups, categories of students that across the nation we are looking at and disaggregating so that you don't have just one score and look at what did the school do but what did this group of African American students do at the school? What did the school of Hispanic students do at the school? How did they perform based on the test? I believe that test scores are not everything. I think there is much more that we are expected to achieve with our students beyond test scores but I do believe that by taking a closer look and examining how students are doing regarding these tests has forced us as educators to look at students and make sure that we don't overlook any child. Because I know as a classroom teacher for 12 years, as a principal, it was easier for us to say, "Okay, let's take the average of the class," and then if you had a student here that was sitting quietly and not doing well then that student might not have been performing as they should have but it was easier to just maybe not bring the attention there. So I do like the fact that we are focused on all children being proficient. Now there are some other pieces about the legislation that I don't particularly like and that is the all or nothing nature of No Child Left Behind. Either you made it or you didn't. Not you came close and that sort of thing.
Bullock-Brown: But do you think that in general both the North Carolina's testing standards and also the federal No Child Left Behind are proving to be somewhat effective in narrowing the achievement gap?
Fogg: I would say they are being effective in bringing close scrutiny to the achievement of all groups of students and thereby with that closer scrutiny then we are going to have some narrowing of the achievement gap. But then as Mr. Pankey said, we have got students that are not learning, are not doing and we have got to figure out ways that we can help them. Is it the student or is it something that we, as educators, need to do in order to engage them in the learning process? And those are the issues that are being discussed now. What do we need to do differently versus when I was in the classroom-my last classroom I taught was in 1990. I would have to do some things differently now to make sure that all of my students were engaged now if I were a classroom teacher versus then.
Bullock-Brown: Sure. Mr. Pankey, with your extensive experience in the classroom, what would-do you acknowledge a narrowing of the achievement gap and do you attribute it to No Child Left Behind and EOG or is there something else at work?
Pankey: Well, what works is that we have some great teachers. With No Child-well, that is the answer. The key is we have some great teachers and we have students-what we haven't' looked at is right now let's think in terms of Thomas Edison. We had better teachers and better students now than Thomas Edison ever had in his whole lifetime. You think in terms of giants in history. We have better teachers now than we have ever had in the history of American and the history of the world. With computers we have access to technology, we have access to research. We can put together research papers and send it two hours now so things are definitely better. I think the issue is we keep raising the bar. Students are doing much better than ever in history. We have more students going to college and we have more African American students going to college than ever and we have more Hispanic students. We have people making more money. What makes the news? Negatives make the news. But students are doing much better. Behavior has improved. Academic achievement has improved across the board but good teachers-we have some extraordinary teachers and there is no way to get around it. School improvement is a process. It is not a legislative act. It is a process of having good teachers and learning going on in the classroom. That is it.
Bullock-Brown: Well, when you brought up Thomas Edison and legends of history who-and I guess in most people's eyes had a superior intellect and were very smart-I was thinking that you were going in the direction of saying that since we are at a point in our history where teachers are at their greatest in what they are doing, they are at their best, why don't we have more Thomas Edison's and people of his ilk? Students who are performing at a level that would cause us to predict that this is going to be someone who is going to be like a Thomas Edison in the future?
Pankey: Well, we do have more. We have more scientists than ever. We have more doctors.
Bullock-Brown: Are these African American scientists?
Pankey: We have more African American scientists than ever. Remember, years ago we didn't even have the data. Years ago people would go to the eighth grade and they were fine. Remember also, we are teaching students from over 100 countries now. We are teaching everybody now. We are not just teaching local students. Because of the planes people are coming. My daughter will never go to school just in North Carolina. She will probably go to school in France, she will go to school in England, she will go to school in Germany. And the same with people from other countries so we are not just teaching local students. We are now teaching the world. It is a global and international education now. And that is also the group of students that we are testing. So we need to be careful when we look at test scores. We are testing-and that is one thing about No Child Left Behind-we are testing everybody. Years ago we hand-picked who we tested.
Bullock-Brown: And that makes a difference.
Pankey: It makes a big difference.
Bullock-Brown: Sure. Dr. Fogg, in light of what Mr. Pankey has said about how the student body-the complexion of the student body-is very global. We have students from all over the globe that are coming into North Carolina schools. Has the social climate in the classroom changed as a result and how does that impact how kids learn?
Fogg: I am glad Mr. Pankey brought that up because we are educating more students now than we did in the past because some students were able to succeed in life when they had an eighth grade education and so we are able to do that. I would say that for the most part boys and girls get along. Boys and girls with a very positive climate in the classroom will get along and do well. However, I think that for our teachers we have to learn about other cultures. In fact, at my school we have a program that is coming to our school, the English as a Second Language program that is at our school this year for the first time. And we are very interested in what we can learn about the families, the cultural interests, of our students that are coming because we want to know so what we can make it a very welcoming kind of environment so that it is that positive climate so that students know that we care about you. We understand about you because we understand something about where you came from and what your expectations are in your family.
Bullock-Brown: Let me jump in here for a moment because what you just said about wanting to help students to know that we care about you and we have taken the time to actually learn about you. We want you to feel comfortable in the classroom. It seems to me that there has to be a correlation between that willingness on teacher's behalf to get to know their students and know where they come from and any sort of discipline problems that you might have in the classroom because it seems to me that kids act out when they feel like they are not being understood. They don't, they are not being acknowledged. Would that be.?
Pankey: Bingo. You hit it. We talk discipline, discipline, discipline but I would add relationships. Relationships, relationships. When we have good relationships with students, student achievement improves. Students work much harder. It is about good relationships. It is about respect. It is about pride. It is about dignity.
Bullock-Brown: And it seems that with teachers learning or being willing or even compelled, mandated, to do all that they can to understand the students that are coming into their classroom that that would eventually quell that sort of discipline.
Fogg: Well, with students we are always going to have issues of teaching students what we expect of them. That is not going to go away. And we are going to have-these are children that we are working with so they will challenge the rules sometimes and that is okay because as adults we are there to help them learn that this is the expectation in school and this will help you life etcetera. But the issue with relationships is it is not just the relationship of the teacher and the student but it is the relationship of everyone. It is the relationship between the principal and the teachers. The teachers to each other. The teachers and the parents and the students. I have found over my years in education that really is the center of it all because if you have the kind of relationship in your building with your community, with everyone that we care about you. We care about what happens to you. We want you to be a success. When you have that kind of feeling permeating your building, all the other pieces are going to-they will fall in place. I remember once with a very-a brand new teacher I had in my school. And I shared with him. He became one of the best teachers in my school. I shared with him, "Paul, the first thing you need to do is you have to have the children-you have to develop that relationship. You have to have those procedures establish them in a caring environment. Tell the kids what you expect. Tell the parents what you expect of them. And vice versa. Listen to your students. Listen to your parents. And when all of you know that you care about each other, beautiful things can happen in the classroom.
Bullock-Brown: I believe it. Well, just thinking about teachers now for a moment. I mean, there is so much that I think is required of them. And understandably so because we do want to the students to be engaged but is it getting to the point where so much is being required and expected of teachers that it is almost too much? I mean, it's too much to expect that they are going to understand all their students and they are going to engage all of them and they are going t have these relationships with the parents and they are going to make sure that there is a community element there. There is a lot going on.
Pankey: I think teachers want to teach. When we have questions, we want answers. Are students learning? How do you know? Beyond that teachers want to teach. Remember the ABC students are tested in over 11 areas. That is a lot of stress in a school. A lot of stress on teachers and remember also that we take the data now and we break it down and we can look at every group. Are exceptional children doing well? Limited English proficiency students-are they doing well? Are white students doing well? Are students on free lunch doing well? Are black students doing well? Are females doing well? Are males doing well? So it is a lot of stress. But teachers want to teach and they want to be creative. They don't want to be trapped or focused on just testing.
Bullock-Brown: Well, I am sorry. I want you to just talk a little bit about what sort of methods you outline in your book. What sort of strategies are helpful?
Pankey: I do talk about testing. I do talk about test scores but the thing that I want to think about very carefully-the average child lives to be 70 years old. They finish their test at 18 in high school for the rest of their lives so what is it that we really want students to know? What is it that we want them to be able to do? And what type of human beings do we want on this planet? So pride, dignity, self-respect, morality issues are very important. Yes, I talk about improving test scores, the standard course of study, being actively engaged, aligning the curriculum with standardized tests. But the main thing that I talk about is what type of human beings do we want? Because I really think it is going to come down to that if we have geniuses without morality, they are going to take your money out of the bank. If we have geniuses without morality, they are going to blow up the planet. So we want to develop humanistic people-people with good interpersonal communication skills.
Bullock-Brown: Right. Dr., Fogg, I am going to give you the last word. What would you say is the-just sum it all up for us. What should viewers take away from this especially those that have students that they might be able to help them?
Fogg: Well, I would like to-my closing remarks are I would like for us to be very positive about the direction that we are taking, that we are not there where we need to be with all of our students and especially African American students but we are trying to move into that direction. So I would like for us to keep that positive note, that we have some wonderful children. We really, really do. Even children that are exhibiting some really negative behaviors. We have some wonderful children and we cannot give up on them. As far as teachers are concerned, teachers are wonderful. And I really in my heart believe that all teachers get into the profession because they really-they want to be there.
Bullock-Brown: I've got to cut you off. I am sorry but I'd like to thank our guests, Dr. Delores Fogg and Henry Pankey for coming out to share their views this evening. If you would like to get in touch with our guests or obtain a copy or a transcript of tonight's show, please visit us online at www.unctv.org/bif. When you visit, be sure to give us your comments and program suggestions and you can also call us on the BIF line at 919-549-7167. Join us each and every Friday night at 9:30 for more stimulating discussions. For Black Issues Forum, I am Natalie Bullock-Brown reminding you to be encouraged no matter what. Good night.
|
