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Brown: It is an old tradition in the African-American community that seems to be experiencing a current growth spurt. I am speaking of relatives raising relative's kids or kinship care. We will discuss it next on Black Issues Forum.
Voiceover: Funding for this program is made possible in part by UNC-TV members.
Lewis: Good afternoon everyone, I'm Natalie Bullock Brown. Welcome to Black Issues Forum. Increasingly grandparents and other relatives are serving as primary caregivers for their children's children or the children of other kin. In fact according to numbers from the U.S. Census and AARP, about 135,000 or 6.9% of all children under age 18 live in grandparent-headed households. Another 39,000 live in homes headed by relatives other than grandparents. And an additional 36,000 live in homes headed by non-relatives. What is the overall affect of these households on the children living in them and how do the caregivers, who as grandparents are often elderly, manage caring for youngsters or teenagers?
We will try to understand these questions and others with the help of our guest. I would like to introduce Pheon Beal, Director of the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services Division of Social Services. We also have with us Nathan and Viola Stallings from Wilson, North Carolina and they are parenting their two teenage grandchildren and have been doing so since the children were of school age. Welcome to Black Issues Forum all of you.
Now I'd like to start off by just hearing about from the Stallings, how did you come to care for your grandchildren, and tell us exactly what age they were and what happened, Mrs. Stallings?
Viola: We come to care for our grandchildren at age-Jasmine was age 8, Joshua age 5. And it was really left on us because their mom was going to get an apartment and the apartment never came, she never got one. So my husband and I knew we had to do something and take on another role of raising them again. And we had to go to court and get custody because they both were sick children as they both had, and then we had to go to the schools and change a few things because she was nowhere to be found. But then after months passed we saw that she wasn't really going to come back and get the children so we knew that we had to do something that we were regretting to do and that was to get the children.
Brown: Well let me just cut in real quick and just help our viewers to understand that their mother, your grandchildren's mother, is your daughter.
Viola: Yes.
Brown: And did you know where the father was?
Viola: No, never.
Brown: So your daughter basically dropped the kids off one day and said they would be staying for a short period of time and you have had them now for how long?
Viola: Nine years.
Brown: And how are they doing?
Viola: They are doing great, great.
Brown: Okay. Mr. Stallings, can you just describe what your experience has been over the past nine years? What has it been like to have to raise your grandchildren?
Nathan: Well it was pretty hard when I first started but it gradually became more easy and easier.
Brown: What was hard about it?
Nathan: The hard part was to get to know the kids, then the kids get to know you.
Brown: Were they not constantly in your life? Was your daughter living in another place so you didn't get to see them that often prior to them being in your household permanently?
Nathan: Right, there was a lot of it, you know. By them not living with us at all times, and sometimes we'd see them, sometimes we didn't. It was sort of hard but through prayer.
Brown: You were able to get through?
Nathan: Yes.
Brown: Well I'd like to show pictures of your grandchildren now. We have a picture up of Joshua; and he is now how old?
Viola: He is 14.
Brown: Wow. And that's Jasmine?
Viola: Seventeen.
Brown: And you were telling me before the show that she has aspirations to go to college?
Viola: Yes.
Brown: And that she is, both are doing very well in school?
Viola: Very well.
Brown: Well this brings up a question for me, Ms. Beal; I want to ask which is what is the overall effect of grandparents or other relatives raising kids? In this case with the Stallings it seems like this has been a wonderful experience for both the grandparents and the kids. The kids look like they are thriving. Does this, is this the norm?
Beal: Oh absolutely. First of all I want to say how much I appreciate and admire people like the Stallings who take on this responsibility. Not because they seek it out, but because in a lot of cases they have to as they were saying.
Brown: They have no choice.
Beal: They have no choice. And as a matter of fact, this is something that the state and the federal government has mandated that we as a state do since the '90s; before we place a child in our foster care system or adopt in our adoption system we have to seek out relatives who are willing to take on the care of children rather than separate them from their blood relatives. And fortunately we've had people like the Stallings who step forward to take on the care of children. The federal government and state has recognized that children are better off in these type of relative placements. Right now we have 11,000 children roughly in the custody of the state and about one-fourth of them, about 2,600 children are in these kind of relative placements.
Brown: Well is the percentage of relative placements and particularly grandparent placements, is it high, is it something that your department is trying to increase in terms of numbers?
Beal: Well we don't know how many of them are actually with grandparents but we do know that a number of them are with their grandparents and we have seen this as a growing trend. It is something that we have tried to support, this type of arrangement, by providing assistance, cash assistance, and any other kind of support services that we can by encouraging our county departments and Social Services to wrap services around these families and provide them with the kind of support that they need. The Stallings mentioned that they sought out custody; legal guardianship and custody is something that we are required to and encourage a lot of these families to go for because you do have to have that legal custody or guardianship of these children over the long-haul because of things like getting them in school, medical care. And that is a perfect segue way back to the Stallings because before the show you were telling me, Mrs. Stallings, that your grandchildren, because of their asthma, you were taking them to a doctor and what did the doctor tell you?
Viola: She told me that she would no longer be able to treat the children until I got custody of them because their mother had custody and she felt that if something more serious would come up that I would have to go through a lot before they, you know, the doctors would do anything for these children. But then after I did seek custody I was able, Social Service was very, very good to me. And they gave me the Medicaid cards that I needed to take them for their medication and their medical treatments.
Brown: And Mr. Stallings, I remember that there was perhaps an issue with your daughter whose children your grandkids are in the first place. Once you gained custody of the children what happened as far as the financial resources that were available to them or to your daughter? Did they shift to you or did they remain with the daughter?
Nathan: I will let my wife do that because I took, see I tried to take care of the boy and she took care of the girl, see, so she knows more about how things, how the system worked.
Brown: Well what exactly happened, Mrs. Stallings?
Viola: When, what now?
Brown: When your daughter, when you gained custody-
Viola: Yes.
Brown: The, all of the financial resources that were going to your children come, they came to you?
Viola: Yes they did.
Brown: And what, how did that impact your daughter or the kids?
Viola: Well it didn't hardly-I don't think it impacted her at all because she just called and said I took her money. And after that then the children thought-we would go shopping and do what we had to do for the children and use the finances but she didn't seem to worry about it too much.
Brown: Well how did it, how were you two impacted financially? Before you had the resources.
Viola: We were, it was quite a burden on us because we both are retired and we just had a little bit for ourselves but with church family and different ones being so nice to us, they'd give us a lot and different family members helped us with clothing and things of this sort.
Brown: Ms. Beal, is this, do you hear this story often?
Beal: Yes we do and as a matter of fact a lot of the ways these families are known to the county departments of Social Services, some come in through the child welfare system because the children are placed there because they are in custody of the state. But a number of the families are part of our first program, which started out as a part of our old welfare system, the Aid to Families with Dependent Children program. But now about half of the families on our old welfare system, our Work First program, are what we call "child-only" cases, those with children being raised by someone other than their biological parents because they are not subject to any federal time limits or work requirements and there are families like this that are receiving a small monthly assistance but one thing that we absolutely want to make sure that these families receive is things like child support from that absent parent if we can find them. Or Food Stamps or any other kinds of assistance that they need to proceed.
Brown: So any benefits that were going to the parent that left the children-
Beal: Would now go to this family because they would have custody of the child. But in our Assistant Guardianship program, which is through the Child Welfare Program, this would be when the court has decided that a child has been in a home long enough that this is the better arrangement for that child and they can receive a certain amount of assistance based on the need of the child. But right now that is only in about 38 counties in our state. This is a program that we are piloting with a waiver from the federal government and we would like to take it statewide when the pilot is over in 2009. That allows us to use one of our federal funding streams to match our state dollars and provide some additional assistance to these families because we recognize that this is going to be a growing trend in our state.
Brown: But you are saying the funding is in place, it is just a matter of the piloting period being over?
Beal: Right. Right now we only are able to use our federal block grant for our Work First program and some state funds for our adoption assistance and our foster care program. But we hope to be able to bring in some other resources to bear.
Brown: Okay. What sort of limitations did you experience, Mr. and Mrs. Stallings, raising your grandkids? I mean nine years is a long time and both of you you said were retired when you, when the children came to your home. So that is a good deal of time where you are struggling, you know really it is the time that you are supposed to enjoy. So what sort of hardships did you experience, or limitations, things that perhaps you wish you could have done for the kids but weren't able to because of your situation and you can start Mrs. Stallings?
Viola: Well-
Brown: If any.
Viola: No.
Brown: There weren't any limitations?
Viola: No, there weren't any limitations. It was kind of hard for us because our vacations, we couldn't do, we couldn't go, and we-there were some, too, like we had to work around their schedule and still do because we can't go anyplace and we have not, no family members in Wilson-
Brown: To help you?
Viola: To help us, to look after the children. So they want to go places today. We can't let them go because we don't know whether we will be back in time for them to go and sometimes it is quite hard. You know we want to go out to dinner; we can't go because they have to go someplace.
Brown: I understand. Mr. Stallings, what would you say that, or how would you say the kids have faired during their nine years with the two of you? I mean they look great from the pictures that we saw but what have been some of the challenges they have had?
Nathan: I think that some of it was they wanted their mother to be there, I think. You know, children are not going to act just right when they've got, I call it a two-track mind, with their grandparents and with their parents, see. I think there is a big difference. But you have to try to find something that the children like to do. See when I got the boy I took him, I got him interested in fishing. And we just love to fish; every time the weather was right we would try to go fishing. And he was, I found out he was somebody who wanted to be busy at all times. And I got him cutting grass. So we have had a good relationship together. We can laugh just like we were brothers and talk and joke with one another, you know.
Brown: And Mrs. Stallings, I would assume you have a similar relationship with your granddaughter?
Viola: Well her attitude is a little bit different because she is a girl and she feels that grandma is a little too old. She says to me sometimes that, "Nana you are a little old, old, old," but she is a sweet girl. She works now at Coldstone Creamery in Wilson and she loves to be in everything, everything. But other than that they both have adjusted well.
Brown: And it sounds like the Stallings are onto something, Ms. Beal?
Beal: I think they are and they get a chance to share it because the Wilson County Department of Social Services has a support group for families like the Stallings of which they are a part.
Brown: And the-what sort of programs in the Division of Aging are available for grandparent-headed households, relative-headed households?
Beal: Well I can't speak so much for the Division of Aging but I do know that I am working with the Division of Aging and we are working on establishing some programs specifically for this emerging population and hopefully we will be able to spread it across the state over the next two to three years.
Brown: And I am just, I am curious if your department is doing any tracking of kids who are being raised in these households and how are they fairing in general once they reach a, are of age to go on to college and be on their own?
Beal: Yes we are as a matter of fact. We are part of, participate in a national study of child-only households and hopefully we are-that is part of our attempt, to develop some better services for children so that we can produce better outcomes for children who are being raised in these households.
Brown: Are the outcomes currently not good?
Beal: We are seeing a lot of children who are very broken who are entering these households so we have to basically look at where they are now and look at their, for example their grades in school need improvement, a number of these children. But their outcomes are showing some improvements after they enter these households, which is going to improve them.
Brown: So that, and that is good, that sounds like the children are benefiting from being in these households.
Beal: Most definitely.
Brown: And that is awesome.
Beal: And a number of them that are in these arrangements are not entering the foster care system.
Brown: At all?
Beal: Yes.
Brown: So this might be a way to save children from the foster care system, possibly?
Beal: Absolutely.
Brown: Mrs. Stallings, grades-actually both Stallings. How are Joshua's grades, Mr. Stallings?
Nathan: Good, very good. He is real smart.
Brown: What are we talking about? Are we talking about A's, are we talking about B's?
Nathan: A's and B's.
Brown: A's and B's. And Mrs. Stallings, what about Jasmine?
Viola: Jasmine, A, B, and every now and then maybe she will run across a C.
Brown: But in general they are doing very well?
Viola: A's and B's, very well. They are involved in a lot of things. Like Jasmine, she is in FCCALA, she is involved in that, she is involved in the school chorus, she goes to the Boys and Girls Club for marketing-there is a man there that teaches them how to save their money and how to write checks out, Joshua and Jasmine, which has been in the Boys and Girls Club ever since we relocated to Wilson. And they are also in the Youth of Wilson. I have them in everything I can think of.
Brown: Well I was just about to say it sounds like, well I was going to ask you, did, were they interested in these organizations, or but?
Viola: Oh yes.
Brown: And did they come to you and say, "Grandma I want to be in these." Or did you say, "I want you to check this out and I want you to be a part of it"?
Viola: Well Social Services, there is, a young lady from Social Services introduced us to the Boys' and Girls' Club. And they liked it. They went away to summer camp every year, to Camp Walter Johnson. And after that I had no problem.
Brown: Ms. Beal, what are the strengths of kinship care? Because it sounds like some of what kids get with the grandparents in particular might be some structure that they might not have gotten otherwise. Does that?
Beal: Absolutely. Definitely more structure than they probably would have had if they had remained with their biological parents. They have roots. They have a connection to their family, to their blood relatives. They have a connection to tradition, to history. I wouldn't have wanted to grow up not knowing my family's history and you certainly have that. Children of the age that these two young children were when they came into their family, had they grown up in the foster care system, might never have known the history of their family and their grandparents. And I think that makes a great deal of difference to a child, particularly when they enter their teen years. I think it makes a difference not only for their behavior but also to know who they are as a young person. And that has to impact things like their outcomes in school, their attitude toward life. And I think it makes them feel like they have stability in their life. And I think that was a recognition on the part of the state when we decided, and when the federal government decided, that you would seek first placement with the relative. But I think that also encumbers us to provide some support to these families if we are going to seek them as our first level of entry for these children who are in the custody of the state. They are a resource to us and a very valuable resource and I think we should treat them accordingly.
Brown: So is there a, what sort of-you've talked a little bit about the support that currently exists but how much more support do you think is necessary to really help grandparents and other relatives to care for their relatives' children?
Beal: Well I mentioned the federal waiver that we have. That is a waiver to use one of our federal funding streams called 4E more flexibly. That would allow us to increase the payment that we make to these families by using that federal funding stream. And it also allows us to spend the money more flexibly. But also I think we as a community need to recognize the fact that these families do exist in our community that these children are not just staying overnight, that they are living with their grandparents and we have a generation between them. Your program on gangs, for example, these same families are having to cope with those issues. And they grew up in a generation where gangs were not as much of an issue but they are still having to grapple with the same kinds of issues. And I think that we have a tremendous resource here and a way to save a generation and to solve some of the issues that we are dealing with in our school system, closing the gap, the achievement gap. We have a tremendous resource here to help us with that. And we have a very timely charge in front of us to use this resource appropriately but to remember that as Mrs. Stallings, Mr. Stallings, were saying, they have a life too. And they don't have to, they should not have to give it up in order to raise their children and to put resources in place for them like support groups.
Brown: Sure. I just wanted to mention to our viewers that we will have a show on gangs coming up next week but in the meantime Mrs. Stallings and Mr. Stallings, do you know many people in your community that are of your age that are doing the same thing that you are, rearing their grandchildren or other children that they are related to?
Viola: Well there are not too many right directly in our community but we know of others who are doing this. We meet them, some of them come to the grandparents' meeting which we have set up, a program that is set up by Social Services in Wilson and sometimes they will come and sometimes they won't. And I work the phone diligently to try to get them to come because it is very important.
Brown: Why is it so important?
Viola: It is important to me and my husband because each time we go we learn something new and when we see other parents that their conditions are so much worse than mine have ever been, it makes me want to reach out, why I try to, and help. But they are very slack about coming to the meetings, the grandparents' meetings. And we have it every fourth Monday of the month in Wilson.
Brown: Okay. Well, I just admire what you two are doing very much. I congratulate you for all that you have done with your children and I want to thank Ms. Beal also for being here. I'd like to thank our guests for sharing their personal stories and for what we hope was some good information for our viewers out there.
If you'd like a transcript of today's show visit us online at UNC-TV.org/bif. And when you visit please give us your comments and program suggestions. You can also call us on the BIF line at 919-549-7167. Be sure to watch us each Sunday afternoon at 4:30. For Black Issues Forum I am Natalie Bullock Brown reminding you to be encouraged no matter what. Have a good one.
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