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Episode #2125
Blacks On Immigration
Brown: North Carolina has one of the fastest growing populations of Hispanics in the nation. The growth has sparked much debate about immigration, what it's costing America and what should be done. How is this growing minority population impacting African Americans and what do African Americans think? That has been a matter of debate, too, but we'll talk about it next on Black Issues Forum.
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Brown: Hello, everyone and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I am Natalie Bullock Brown. According to reports by the US Census 1.4 million new residents have made North Carolina home in the last 10 years and the immigrant population more than tripled. Much of that population resides here without legal documentation. With reported counts of between 200-300,000 our state has the eighth largest population of undocumented immigrants in the nation. No doubt this has impacted the economy. In a comprehensive UNC study entitled the Economic Impact of the Hispanic Population on the State of North Carolina reveals just how deeply. In today's discussion we will take a look at figures from the study and talk about African American opinion on some of the issues including legislative moves to address the illegal immigration. We are very please to welcome a very distinguished panel of guests today. First Dr. James H. Johnson Jr., the William Rand Kenan Jr. Distinguished Professor of Management at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and co-author of the Kenan Study on Hispanics. Also Ajamu Dillahunt, the Outreach Coordinator for the Budget and Tax Center at the North Carolina Justice Center, a member of the African American Latino Alliance and a leader in community organizing. And we have Kerra Bolton, the columnist with the Asheville Citizen Times. You may also recognize her as one of the political analysts on UNC-TV's Legislative Week in Review.
Now first of all I would like to go to Dr. Johnson and first say actually to all of you welcome to Black Issues Forum. But Dr. Johnson we wanted to start out with you and ask you to just summarize the study. Tell us what's most important, what were the most important findings that came from it.
Johnson: I think there are three things. One, that we estimated that the Hispanic population in North Carolina in 2004 was in the neighborhood of about 601,000. Most of whom are concentrated along the I-85 corridor and in several rural counties that have companies that rely largely on Hispanic workforce like Duplin County in the east, and that the Hispanic population in 2004 had an economic impact of about $9.3 billion in our economy and when we look at the cost to the state that it is about $61 million or about $102 per Hispanic resident in the state. When you factor in the $9.3 billion in economic impact based on their consumer spending, we think and we found that the Hispanics contribute far more to the state's economy than they cost us.
Brown: Well, let's take a look at some of the findings about the economic impact of the growing immigrant population here in our state. In terms of major public cost in the year 2004 the total was about $817 million broken down as follows. $467 million for K-12 public education. $299 million for health service delivery and $51 million for corrections. We also note that the Kenan study looked not only at the cost but also the benefits to the state as Dr. Johnson mentioned and taking a look at both, the study found again a total estimated cost of close to $817 million. But the estimated taxes contributed were more than $750 million making the net cost of the state about $61 million or only $102 per Hispanic resident. Again, Dr. Johnson highlighted that. The study found that there were broader economic benefits as well including $9.2 billion in total business revenue for our state. 89,000 additional jobs, $1.9 billion in overall statewide private sector wage savings and increased labor output for North Carolina industries. Now one more thing we want to note, numbers that we don't tend to hear about are the Hispanic tax contributions to the state. In personal income taxes the count was $145 million contributed by Hispanic owned business taxes. $86 million was contributed in 2004. And property taxes, $63 million and state sales and motor vehicle taxes was $114 million in indirect sales, income and property tax contributions to the state for $348 million. Now that's a lot of numbers to kind of put into focus. Kerra, if you can help us to understand really what I guess our viewers and African Americans in particular need to take from this information. How should we be viewing immigration and how it impacts us?
Bolton: Well, it is a social political and economic issue and of course you just ran the numbers. Socially, we have to look at what kind of society we want to be and how we are going to integrate this new population into our own society and a lot of times that means weighing our own prejudices whether it's language or race or ethnicity. As well, it is a political issue as we know. There is a huge fight going on in Washington and in state legislatures across the country about how do we best effectively integrate this new population.
Brown: And, Ajamu, and forgive me for saying it incorrectly in the intro. But some of the things that possibly could hinder the integration or the successful integration of this new immigrant population into our community and in particular with African Americans is that there are stereotypes that exist between the two communities. Can you talk about that a little bit and what sorts of things African Americans might need to think about.
Dillahunt: Well, I think that African Americans need to think about our own history actually as a kind of starting place. I am reminded of Jacob Lawrence, the artist, who did this great piece on the Great Migration where he talked about generations of African Americans having to leave the South for a better job opportunities and also the flight from terror to find new jobs in the urban north. And the difficulties they had there, finding jobs, not being accepted by the communities that which they moved into and so on. And so we have got this kind of history that we can draw on and we need to point this out to people in our community that we at one time, too, were migrants. That is a very important starting point, I think.
Brown: Well, let's go back to some more graphics and we are going to get Dr. Johnson back in here. Here are some interesting differences between blacks and whites and how viewpoints differ on the subject of Latin American immigrants. According to a poll by the Pew Research Center on the subject of jobs in America more African Americans say they or a family member has lost a job because an immigrant was hired instead, 22% compared to just 14% of whites. And more African Americans feel that immigrants take jobs away from American citizens, 34% compared to 25% of whites. We also feel it is interesting that there are variations of opinion concerning job opportunity in America. While more than three-quarters of blacks or 78% polled said jobs are difficult to find in their community. The percentage of Hispanics who said the same was a little more than half, at 55% and closer to the percentage of whites who felt the same at 52%.
Regarding the availability of good jobs most African Americans said is was a very big problem while less than half of Hispanics thought so and less than a third of white Americans thought so. Finally, this next set of numbers will reveal an interesting disparity. While the Pew Study found that nationally both blacks and whites say that the growing immigrant population in the US could threaten traditional American values but both groups said they believe that Latin American immigrants are hard working people, 79% of blacks and 77% of whites felt this way. The group split however, when it comes to sympathy for immigrant concerns.
On the question of social services of illegal immigrants, 43% of blacks say illegal immigrants should be eligible compared to only 20% of whites. And while almost 80% of African Americans believe the children of illegal immigrants should be permitted to attend public schools only 67% of whites share that opinion. Blacks in the general public are more supportive than whites of permitting illegal immigrants to stay in the US, about half or 47% say they should be allowed to stay, while about a third of whites believe so. And 47% of blacks also think illegal immigrants should be required to leave the US. That compares to 595 of whites who believe illegal immigrants should be deported.
Okay, Dr. Johnson. I mean, it really can boggle the mind. It's a little bit to wrap your head around. So can you just put into perspective, especially based on the study that you did, on the one hand blacks seem to, or African Americans, seem to support immigrants, unauthorized immigrants being here. But at the same time we are concerned about jobs being taken away and in light of the numbers in terms of what has been brought to the state and the benefit to the state, how do we resolve all of this sort of turmoil? It seems to be based on this information.
Johnson: Sure. I think we resolve it-it's a difficult situation and I think we have to look at the joblessness situation in a broader global context. But sine 1979, between 1979 and 2003 we lost 5.7 million manufacturing jobs in this country. We have lost half of them between 2000 and 2003. Not all of those jobs were due to immigrants being in the United States. There is a larger process that is operating in our economy and I think a lot of what you see in the numbers is a kind of scapegoating. In times of economic downturn we look for someone to blame for our plight. But we had an interesting number in our study: 89,000 additional jobs, spin-off jobs as a function of Hispanic consumer spending in this country. I wonder who have, who are holding those jobs. We really don't know. But I suspect that there is some whites who have those jobs. There are some African Americans who have those jobs. We estimated that if you took the Hispanics out of the construction trades, that 27,000 houses would not have been built in 2004. I mean, it's far more complex than what we see in the marginals of surveys and the like. So I think we have to really get beneath the numbers and understand the dynamic. I think that part of it is as Ajamu said earlier that the support that African Americans seem to display for immigrants is anchored and rooted in our own history that we were immigrants in this land. But I think it's just far more complex, that this is a global process, that labor is highly mobile, and so are jobs, highly mobile and I think that we have to figure out how we can build a global community in which we appreciated the diversity and recognize that it is a real strength for us in a global economy.
Brown: Ajamu, I wanted to give you an opportunity to respond in light of the work that you do and we are going to get Kerra back into the conversation as well.
Dillahunt: Yeah, well, I think that developing coalitions is very important for us in this period and how we go about that is going to be critical. I think Ron Walt [ph] is the political scientist that has kind of talked about developing an alliance with respectful allies. So that the Latino community comes to grips with these notions about African Americans being lazy and not wanting to work hard and understand that we have established some standards over time, that the Civil Rights movement wasn't just about public accommodation and voting rights but also had a great deal to do about jobs and the conditions on those jobs and what we could expect in terms of wages and health and safety and, you know, just being able to work and feeling comfortable with ourselves. So they have to understand that. And, two, there has got to be an understanding that there has been competition in the workplace and that there needs to be a kind of a affirmative approach to hiring African Americans. There are a couple of labor unions, the United HERE [ph] for example that has part of their contracts with the hotel industry by a specific program to hire African Americans workers. This is an industry which all of you will remember was populated by African Americans three or four decades ago. And it's very difficult to find them there now. This is on the east coast and the west coast. So a kind of specific program to hire people. If we can get people to understand that these are some of the tensions and some of the issues and build coalitions on that basis, we also believe that the coalitions have to be built really on the ground, in the workplace where people confront each other, where they can cooperate to make for a better conditions on the job and also in the communities as well.
Brown: Kerra, I want to talk a little bit about what's happening on the hill, as it were, in Raleigh at the legislature. Despite the fact that immigration is somewhat of a concern for African Americans it seems to be a big concern for some white folks and especially those who are in legislative positions. Tell us about what is going on and what sort of bills are up for vote.
Bolton: Well, people are actually campaigning on immigration because it is a hot button issue much like abortion continues to be and you see a range of bills introduced by conservative Republicans that call for some call for making undocumented workers, their children, pay out of state tuition at community colleges and universities. There was actually a senate bill introduced this year that would study having school buses and prison buses take people back to Mexico. So that is how, that's how far in the one extreme that we are going. Another thing is that there was a bill that would charge 5% tax on wire transfers to Latin America, to Mexico for undocumented workers. There have been a number of bills that would, for example, deny immigrants social services. It would require-there is one bill that would have law enforcement check immigrant status when they are making routine traffic stops. There is another bill that would have school systems check for citizenship status before enrolling a child. So there a broad range of ways that they are trying to get at this issue. Another bill would have DMV check citizenship status before giving driver's licenses.
Brown: It almost seems like there is this fear over unauthorized Latin American, Mexican immigrants coming into the country and I am trying to understand what is it fueled by, where is this coming from?
Johnson: Again, I think it's tied to the broader global forces and the economy and the large number of people who are either underemployed or unemployed at this particular point in time. I think that that's part of the driving force. And this is also an election year. And a lot of it is election pandering to garner up and get support and get votes and get reelected.
Brown: I don't mean to interrupt you but what I was-I mean, in the legislature they are employed. We are talking about people who are not on the lower rungs of society. They are not in competition with immigrants for jobs. So why is there this push from people who are, I guess, primarily in politics. But there seems to be a lot of furor on the higher, in the higher echelons of America but in white America in particular and that is what I am not understanding.
Johnson: I think they represent districts that have been devastated by economic restructuring. Large numbers of plant closing, textile plants and things of that nature where they are hearing from their constituencies in part in these local communities. Again, looking for scapegoats and they see the newcomers who are employed in jobs on a daily basis and that fuels a lot of this emotion that they are taking our jobs. I think it's important to step back though, and look at the peak period of Hispanic immigration to North Carolina, the late 1990's. We had a very tight labor market. Unemployment rates were below 4% sometimes in the late 1990's below 1%. As you know unemployment is at about 4%, that is considered full employment. Everybody who wants a job has one and the people that don't have a job, you probably don't want to hire them because they are not worth it getting a job. But it was during that period where in order to compete in the marketplace North Carolina based employers began to recruit labor in major immigrant strongholds in this country as well as in Mexico. They were competing in a global marketplace for workers. And some African Americans actually moved up in the queue in that tight labor market creating opportunities at the lower rungs of the markets. So it is very complex. I think people operate on emotions and that is not to say that there isn't some discrimination in the marketplace. To be sure there is. But it's part of larger globalization process that we are operating in and I think our challenge is to figure out how do we manage this transition to a global economy, how do we manage this transition to a society that is racially and ethnically far more diverse and compete in that marketplace at the same time. That's the real challenge for us and not to fall prey to the emotional political pandering that is going on. Because at the end of the day, it's the what-if question if the immigrants weren't here. 27,000 houses wouldn't have been built in 2004, I wouldn't have had to sat at a restaurant on the day of national recognition for two and half hours waiting to get a veggie burger and 57 people come up and turn around and go out of the restaurant. I mean, those kinds of things. I think we have to look at the reality of our society, operating in a global society. And that 55% of the Hispanics on North Carolina are authorized to be here. 20% of them born in this state, 20% of them born in some other state. So let's understand and get some sanity to the numbers and then try to make conscious policy based on what we know. I'm not saying we know everything but we know a lot more than you get in the political pandering oftentimes.
Brown: Well, in response to or in light of what Dr. Johnson said, Ajamu, how do, how would collations, building coalitions between African Americans and Latinos help to alleviate some of the tensions that are, that exist whether for good or for bad, for right or for wrong?
Dillahunt: Well, I mean, of course there is the challenge to the stereotypes that I talked about a little earlier. But also the cooperation that is necessary. I mean, on the political front as the years and decades go by more and more of the Hispanic workforce will be participating in the political process and so it is going to be important that African Americans and Latinos develop these alliances that produce good candidates, candidates that support public policy that works to benefit both communities. That is going to be important. And then again, we emphasize this issue of workplace level cooperation and understanding. I men, it's very easy on a human level to be angry at people who are not really responsible for the problem. And so as has been pointed out, it's the employers who have made these decisions as to what kind of labor they want to hire, how far they have reached out to get this kind of labor and it's certainly not the problem and the responsibility of those who answered the call, who have come.
Brown: But how do you forge these alliances in the workplace when they are-you know, because of the economic implications, you know, people really don't want to necessarily sit down and talk.
Dillahunt: Well, by necessity. Out of necessity. I mean, if we are dealing with specific workplace issues, how are we going t resolve this problem of a bad supervisor or poor working conditions or low pay for that matter? What kind of cooperation do we need amongst the entire workforce to make a challenge to a particular employer to do this? We've got to have this understanding. So communication between people, identifying the common issues that we have, and how we can deal with them. And I think one of the difficulties that people find, that a lot of people who are undocumented or unauthorized are reluctant to come forward because they are afraid their status might put them in jeopardy of being deported. So it really denies us in the African Americans community an ally that we really need to fight on these things. But then there is even a secondary affect, right? Once African Americans workers see that that maybe we can't depend on them, they may be reluctant to step forward because they know there is somebody outside waiting to come in and take their job as well. So it has this really chilling affect on people standing up in the workplace. And so that is where we have got to focus our attention.
Brown: Okay, I am going to give you the last word, any unity on the hill, in the legislature amongst black legislators, that it is number one. Number two, any of these bills that you have mentioned that were just kind of chilling in and of themselves that seem to be on their way to being passed?
Bolton: Well, we haven't heard much from the legislative caucus about these bills. Most of these bills have been sent to the rules committee basically a place where bills go to languish or die. And the session will end pretty soon and we probably will not see much action on them. The legislature is focused on the budget and ethics and governmental reform as well as some other issues. So I doubt that we will see anything this year. But next year's long session brings an opportunity for these bills to be reconsidered because depending on who has control of the chambers next year, it could depend on what kind of action will be taken.
Brown: Well, thank you so much to all three of you. I really appreciate your insight and your expertise being shared here. If you would like to view the full Kenan report about the economic impact of Hispanics on our state, we will have links on our website as well as a transcript at unctv.org/bif. For information you can also call us on the BIFLine at 919-549-7167. For Black Issues Forum, I am Natalie Bullock Brown reminding you to be encouraged no matter what. Have a good one.
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