Holt: Deborah Holt: Host
Lewis: Mitchell Lewis; Contributing Producer
Wright: Thomas E Wright, State Representative from New Hanover County
Quarles: Orage Quarles; President and publisher of the News & Observer
Gruber: Bob Gruber, publisher of the Star Journal.

Holt: After more than six year of study, town hall meetings, interviews and more, the commission appointed by the state to report on the only organized political overthrow of an American government in our nation’s history has come back with its findings and recommendations. Some contributors say they don’t want an apology, others say they don’t want reparations. So what’s to be done and who needs to do it? We’ll talk about it next on Black Issues Forum.

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Holt: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I’m Deborah Holt in for Mitchell Lewis and Natalie Bullock-Brown. It was the violent overthrow that some say forever changed the relationship between race and politics in our state not to mention the economic standing of an entire community of African Americans. The day of rioting that took place in Wilmington in 1898 is now a thoroughly documented event in our state’s and nation’s history. Now that the facts are out there is much talk about who should be held accountable and recommendation for how to redress what happened over 100 years ago? To help us explore these questions we have with us Thomas E Wright, State Representative from New Hanover County. Representative Wright co-sponsored the legislation that led to the establishment of the Wilmington Race Riot Commission and he chaired the group. We also have Orage Quarles, the President and publisher of the News & Observer. And Bob Gruber, publisher of the Star Journal. We should note the commission’s report names both newspapers along with the Charlotte Observer and Washington Post as having been instrumental in spreading propaganda that led to the events around the 1898 incident. And if you are unfamiliar with that story, here is Mitchell Lewis with a bit more on that report.

Lewis: 1898 was an election year. Racial tension was running high in Wilmington because many of the top political positions in the city were held by black Republicans. Meanwhile, Democrats across the state were appealing to North Carolina voters to restore control of the state to white people. A congressman’s wife said publicly that the biggest threat to white farm wives in the South was the black brutes who raped them and that if it meant lynching a thousand Negroes to clean up the scourge, so be it.

Then Alex Manly, editor of the Negro newspaper, Daily Record, suggested white men should watch their women more closely and that sometimes white women are attracted to black men. These statements inflamed the worst racial violence in Wilmington’s history. Local author Philip Gerard chronicles the events in his novel Cape Fear Rising.

Gerard: A legally elected Democratic government in the United States was overthrown by military coup, didn’t happen during riots and it didn’t happen during strikes. It was planned and executed and nothing was done about it.
Lewis: One of the leaders of the uprising was an ex-Confederate officer, Colonel Alfred Moore Waddell. He was a down-on-his-luck struggling lawyer in 1898. But on November 8th Wilmington’s elegant Thalian Hall set the stage for Waddell’s transformation.

Gerard: In this hall Colonel Alfred Moore Waddell made two important speeches for the white supremacy movement. In the first he claimed that he would rid the state of Negro domination if it meant that he would have to choke the current of the Cape Fear River with the carcasses of his enemies. The second one he delivered the night before election day in which he said if you see the Negro out voting send him home from the polls. If he won’t go, shoot him down in his tracks. And he electrified the crowd.

Lewis: November 10th, 1898, nearly 600 light infantrymen and vigilantes spent the night here at the Wilmington Light Infantry Armory and a nearby church. At 8:00 a.m. Colonel Waddell called the group to action and led them to Free Love Hall where Alex Manly’s newspaper was located. The mob then set fire to the building and posed for a photograph beside the ruins. The riots had begun. By that evening, Negroes were fleeing into nearby swamps and even into the local white cemetery.

Gerard: And a number of them came here to Oakdale Cemetery to hide among the berms and under the trees where they could find some shelter from the cold drizzle that had begun falling since later afternoon and continued throughout the night.
Lewis: As many as several hundred people perished in the riots while many others left the city greatly reducing Wilmington’s black population. Perhaps the most amazing thing about the 1898 riots is that few people know about them.

Holt: And hopefully now that the report by the commission has come out, more people will learn about this incident. And let’s start with you Representative Wright. First, would you just kind of explain to us why it was so important that this commission be established to study this matter?

Wright: Well, Deborah, a couple of reasons. One is that this incident although known to many Wilmingtonians and many North Carolinians was never talked about. It was a great hush. You whispered about it, everyone knew about it but no one publicly wanted to talk about it. In 1996 a group of citizens in Wilmington got together and formed the 1898 Foundation. In ’97, in 1998 they commemorated the 100th anniversary, if you will, of such a horrific event. As a result of that it was in 2000, 2001 when the late Senator Luther Jordan and myself at Senator Jordan’s urging decided to create a study commission within the legislature to establish a historical record based on fact. That way once and for all we could put the truth out there and at least folks could acknowledge that such an incident occurred only on American soil in the state of North Carolina in the city of Wilmington was a legitimate government overthrown by conspiracy, murdered. And it never happened on American soil where nothing ever happened as a result of it. And so we decided to do that and established a 13 member commission appointed by the governor of the state, the speaker of the house of representatives, the president pro tem of the senate as well as the city council of Wilmington and the mayor and the county commissioners of New Hanover County. That was to get buy-in from all government establishments to a appoint citizens who had an interest in this or who at least would help address the issue. So after four and a half long years of work we have this end product.

Holt: What is the most striking thing that you have learned from the study?
Wright: So many things. One, that I learned that at the time the federal government had no legal responsibility to protect the citizens. It was before we had the protections under the Voting Rights Act-or any other protection. Although the federal government probably should have sent folks in but that was a very big sticking point for me. Unfortunately my question was answered with the federal government having no legitimate responsibility. But the state of North Carolina had tremendous responsibility to protect its citizens. And it did not. It failed. As well as did local government. But after all, there was political strife and violence that occurred within the city and the county so you wouldn’t expect those local officials to do anything.

As an elected official that was just the most mind boggling thing for me, that you can’t protect the people that you are sworn to uphold to protect. Really, really bizarre. In addition to that, that the population of Wilmington was two-thirds black at the time and we were a thriving, booming community, remarkable. That folks were working together, getting along together, didn’t live together, didn’t live in the same neighborhoods but they at least worked together and respected each other and folks lived in peace and harmony. Just to watch all of that occur then and now look at the city of Wilmington now or even things across the state, it’s pretty disheartening to realize that what happened in 1898 set in motion how North Carolina was going to be perceived and functioning for the next 100 years or longer. Those are just two major things.

Holt: Such a very important part of our history. And, Mr. Quarles, what was the most striking thing that you found?

Quarles: I agree with Representative Wright. The thing that really is almost unbelievable was the failure of the state government to stop the riots and clearly there was enough information available to say that there was an issue, there was going to be something big and the government turned its back. The other probably maybe not surprising but it was a big part of it was the fact that the Democratic Party was the engine behind so much of this.
Holt: And, Mr. Gruber?

Gruber: Well, I concur with both gentlemen. The government is sworn to protect the people, to lead the people and it was a situation where it was really part of the callous of the undoing. It’s incomprehensible.

Holt: Now, let me ask you-I think there has been a lot of misconception, misunderstanding about the alignment of the African American community with the Democratic and the Republican Parties, how do you think this event has kind of shaped the landscape of politics today with regard to the Democratic and the Republican Parties? Mr. Quarles?

Quarles: Boy, that’s a tough question. You can come to a lot of conclusions. But I think that if you go back in prior history that African Americans were the party of Lincoln, Republicans when it started out. And somehow we made that transition to the Democratic Party with the belief and hope that we would be taken care of and that failed. It failed here anyway.

Holt: I am going to ask both you and Mr. Gruber, do you believe that the newspapers that you represent should be held in any way accountable today for what happened so long ago? Mr. Gruber? I’ll start with you.

Gruber: Well, I certainly believe we have a responsibility to learn from this terrible, tragic event that occurred. And our responsibility is to put out the information and to educate the citizens of our city as well as the state. We plan on publishing a section that-in November-that will encapsulize a summary of the commission report and put it out to our citizens in Wilmington so we can better educate them. I’m pleased that the New York Times picked up one of our stories and it reached 1.6 million publications across the United States because as the Representative rightly says, this is not a state piece of history. This is a national piece of history.

Holt: Mr. Quarles?

Quarles: With regards to accountability, Deborah, I think you need to remember that we were not; we were a family owned paper at that time. So we are now owned by a public company and so we can’t compare the two. Should we acknowledge what went on? By all means. Should we try and inform the citizens to try and have a constant reminder that history can repeat itself and that we learn from our history? Yeah, we have that responsibility. There are a lot of things we can do but there are also still a number of answers that we need when I hope that from the commission and from further investigation we can get those answers.

Holt: So Representative Wright, where will the commission or the stuffy be taken now? Because the commission has done its duty. And the newspapers appear willing to do their part. What is it that you are really asking for from them and also from businesses in other parts of the community?

Wright: Well, first of all, Deborah, let me just say thank you to you and UNC-TV for hosting this particular show on Black Issues Forum right now. This is a very important issue for citizens across North Carolina. And this event today, what we are talking about now, is exactly what the commission members would hope would happen after we completed our work and released the report. To begin dialogue, to begin discussions, to talk with all of those interested parties to talk about how we get to where the commission would like to see the report. And the general assembly has a responsibility as well to implement some of the recommendations as well as the executive branch of government and certainly the newspaper regarding their history whether they started off as a family business and where they are now, it’s the history of what you were and what you are. That’s very important for folks to understand, where you are now. And I certainly commend them for being willing to help us get that message out. And certainly correct their own image because it is totally different than what it was 108 years ago.

In addition to that there is some things that the university system can help us with and the entire education system. People really have to know about this piece of American history. Nowhere else in America, on American soil, was a legitimate government overthrown. And if it happened 108 years ago, it’s more difficult to do it now, you’d probably have to do it a little more sophisticated rather than outright bear arms and go tell folks you’re out of town, resign from office or we’ll kill you tomorrow. That won’t happen. But there are other ways to do it. And I think we can learn from that experience and we certainly have to learn from that.

So I’m very encouraged about it as a member of the commission. I think what the legislature has to do is appoint a special select group to work towards implementing the recommendations of the commission. That’s where the commission members left it. But we wanted to take the six month period after we produced the report and presented it to the legislature to at least give the citizens across this country and across this state to read it, digest it, discuss it. And then let the people of the state decide how we are going to do it. And interesting enough, I have been getting calls every week from people across the country, across this nation, who have read the report who are taking a very significant interest in it.

Holt: Now there have been a number of recommendations that have come out of the report including to make this a part of the North Carolina school curriculum. And to have not one spread in the newspapers but a series, a year long, who knows how long of articles so that people can be made aware of this and educated on it. And what I would like to know is what you think about the reality of those recommendations, how do you feel about doing more than one spread? Is that necessary? Mr. Quarles?

Quarles: Certainly there are a number of things we can do and I think Bob mentioned that we are putting together this special section that-the purpose of it was to get it out to the public for the November 10th anniversary of the riots. We think that that’s a good starting point. It’s a way to get young people involved in our history. It’s the way to get people who didn’t grow up here who know nothing about it to understand what’s going on. But that’s just the first step. This is a story that has so many components to it. And so as a newspaper I think we’re going to just take it part by part, piece by piece and hopefully be able to explain it to share it with our readers. And I can’t give you a definite number of days or months or how we’re going to do it but we have talked about it and we are-it’s a continuing subject, if you will.

Holt: And there has also been discussion about involving the business community and the setting up of scholarships and memorials. Mr. Gruber, what’s your thought on scholarships and really involving the business community as a part of rebuilding or contributing to the economic growth of the African American population in Wilmington?

Gruber: Well, Raleigh and our organization have had some preliminary discussions on the scholarship topic and we are certainly interested in furthering to explore that. There are other things that we have talked about. We support the memorial very-the New York Times Foundation has given us substantial pledge to that memorial fund. And anxious to see that happen. We would like to also link the commission report to our website and promote it that way. It is 600 pages in length so for those that want to digest the whole material it gives them another avenue to reach it. But as the citizens decide where they are going with the recommendations, this is an ongoing story. It does not end here. As far as just being in the pages of the daily paper, it is going to continue.

Wright: I agree. We are committed that the report just won’t wind up on shelf somewhere. We think that it is such an integral part of our history. And the work done by the commission has just been unbelievable. Again, if you read it you just shake your head and you almost can’t believe what you’re reading. It’s just-but it happened.

Holt: It did happen and that sort of ties into the question about where we place history and the teaching of history with our young people particularly our African American students and it ties into the whole question of why don’t they know this history? And sometimes they even ask, why do I need to know this history? It’s bygone, we live in a new age and a new day. There are new opportunities and thank you very much but I’m pressing on. Representative Wright?

Wright: Well, whether they are desirous of learning it and keep asking the question of why I need to know it is inconsequential if you ask me. It’s essential that we present it to them. And eventually they will absorb it. If you can recall, as youngsters ourselves, although you’re still very young, but as youngsters, for me, stories and events or even facts that were presented to me that I had very little interest in, were ingrained. Didn’t pay attention to it then. But as I needed it, it was there. So we have to present it whether they want it or not and eventually someone is going to pick it up. But African American youngsters in North Carolina are very interested in their history. Not much on rap music. I listen to some of it but there is a message in it as you well know. And they are talking about culture. Aside from all of the obscenities. But the mainstream rap stuff, what you are hearing from young people, they are talking about their quality of life or the lack thereof. And what opportunities they would love to see. Why is it working here but it’s not working in my own community? Why is there gentrification in my community but it’s not occurring anywhere else? Why is there economic development somewhere else but it’s not here with me? It kind of reminds me of the old saying that James Brown had in one of his records back in my day, tells you how long it is, I don’t want anybody to give me nothing, open up the door, I’ll get it myself. And that’s what the commission report is saying at the end of the day, that we want a level playing field for equity and fairness for all citizens. If one North Carolinian is prospering, the state prospers from that. If one North Carolinian is suffering and drawing on the system then we are all losing.
Holt: And what you’re saying also ties into the whole idea of reparations and why perhaps some have said, “Look, we don’t want reparations.” What are you thoughts on that?

Wright: Well, I’m glad you asked that and we were having this conversation earlier before we came on the set here, I am a personal opponent to reparations as it is defined as you giving me a check for something that you have wrongly done to me. In other words, how can you equitably pay me for the injustice that occurred to my race or even my family? There is not enough money to satisfy me emotionally for that. What I want is equity in policy, fairness across the board, opening up the process so that folks can prosper and enjoy the benefits of our society. Now, as I begin to further understand the definition of reparations we are talking about repairing damage to something that was injured or harmed, or someone who was injured or harmed. If that’s what we’re talking about, defining reparations, I can work on that one. That one I get. But if you’re talking about a pot of money, writing a check to someone, I don’t buy into it. And I don’t think the state of North Carolina will, as well, Deborah, and let me tell you why if I can just elaborate just another minute.

Holt: Certainly.

Wright: This great state acknowledged that it sterilized women sometime ago. You guys did a story on that as well. Yet although the governor apologized, the secretary of health and human services apologized for allowing that to happen, although it wasn’t on their watch, but they’re in position. So they apologized that this occurred within the state to North Carolinians. But we just cut off people’s family lines. I mean, their lifelines are gone. Yet we acknowledged it and we said we would certainly repay them yet here some four years later, they have not received a dime because we can’t agree on how much to pay them and how to go about it. If anyone deserves reparations it is that group. And the state of North Carolina hasn’t made good on that promise. And so I am not convinced for an incident that occurred 108 years ago that we are ever going to get there with just writing a check.
Holt: And how about you, Mr. Quarles? Your thoughts on reparations?
Quarles: I really don’t have any thoughts because it’s so complicated, so complex. Where do you start? Who’s eligible? Who is not eligible? Who makes that decision? So it’s just something that I leave up to the state to decide and I’m just sitting on the sidelines on that one.

Holt: Bowed right. [LAUGHTER] Well, let me pose this question to all of you in the last minute and a half that we have, what are you hoping will not happen as a result of this study? Mr. Gruber?

Gruber: Well, I certainly hope that any publications that we put out that this is not a study that ends up being put on some shelf. That it has a life of its own and leads to action. And I would certainly hope that it ends up in our school systems as an active topic.

Wright: My hope is that now that the report is done and now that it’s going to get the proper attention that we as a state, we as citizens of the state, don’t bow our heads or cover our eyebrows when the 1898 are mentioned. Because that’s the feeling I got when I got here seven years ago. You mention that people didn’t want to talk about it, oh, please don’t bring that up. Well, it did happen. So let’s talk about it. Let’s learn from it. And let’s make this state a better state.

Quarles: What I would like to see is equity in how we-and this equity economically, socially, politically, that has to occur. And when you look at the political disadvantages that occurred in Wilmington for African Americans it is dismal. We have to correct that. And the commission recommends how we do that and I support that wholeheartedly by putting New Hanover County under section II of the Voting Rights Act, has to occur to give a disenfranchised population of citizens a voice. And the only way they can have that is to ensure that that voice will occur. We are the most densely populated city-county, in the state. Second smallest. Yet we don’t have district representation on the local boards and commissions. All of the county commissioners are white. All but one of the school board members are white. Only two of the members of the city council are black and it’s non-partisan. But every African American who has ever served there has always ended up in a run-off. And political arrangements had to be made in order to ensure that that person moved on and there was no challenge. That’s the reality there.

Holt: There is a great education-

Quarles: And I was born and raised there and I am not bashful about talking about it. That’s the only way we are going to set this in motion because more and more people outside of the state of North Carolina are moving to the city of Wilmington and we have to have the political climate and the social climate right if we are going to all prosper.

Holt: And with that we are going to close. Gentlemen, thank you so much for your comments and for coming out today. If you would like to get in touch with our guests or obtain a copy or transcript of tonight’s show, please visit us online at unctv.org/bif and when you visit please give us your comments and program suggestions. You can also call us on the BIFLine at 919-549-7167. For Black Issues Forum, I am Deborah Holt. Thanks for spending your time with us.

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