Brown: Natalie Bullock Brown, host
Atkinson: Dr. June Atkinson, Superintendent of Public Instruction
Davis: Eddie Davis, President of the North Carolina Association of Educators
Dunston: Angela Dunston, N.C. Justice Center’s Education and Law Project.
Vance: Caressa Vance; Parent
Lewis: Jason Lewis; Student
Stone: Chuck Stone; Spearman Professor of Journalism and Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Williams: Richard Williams; State of Black North Carolina Conference founder
Nettles: Dr. Michael Nettles; Senior Research Director of the Educational Testing Service

Brown: The academic achievement gap. Reports say it’s closing, but some say too many black kids are still missing out on a sound, basic education. Is it time to celebrate progress or time to roll up our sleeves in the classroom? We’ll talk about it next on Black Issues Forum.

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Brown: Hello everyone and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I’m your host, Natalie Bullock Brown. Reports by the North Carolina Department of Public Instruction say the racial academic achievement gap is narrowing and more kids are passing their end of grade tests. But members of the African-American community say the size of the gap is still too wide and not enough is being done to close it. What are the current from the end of grade tests and how do these numbers compare to those before efforts were implemented to close the gap, through North Carolina’s ABC’s of Education and the federal No Child Left Behind Act.

To help us understand all of this, we have an esteemed panel of guests. We’d like to welcome June Atkinson, North Carolina’s first female state Superintendent of Public Instruction, an elected office she won in 2004. We also have with us Eddie Davis, who is the president of the North Carolina Association of Educators, an advocacy organization that supports the state’s public school teachers and other employees. And we are also glad to have with us Angela Dunston, an education advocate working with the North Carolina Justice Center’s Education and Law Project. And she’s also the education chair of the state NAACP. Welcome all of you to Black Issues Forum.

Several: Thank you.

Brown: Well, let’s start off very quickly because we have some statistics that we want to get to, but Dr. Atkinson, I want to start with you. If you would define some terms for us: what are EOGs, what are EOCs, and tell us a little bit about the four levels by which tests are graded.

Atkinson: EOG stands for end of grade test, and EOC stands for end of course test. Our scores are divided into four proficiency levels: level one, level two, level three and level four. And levels three and four are considered to be proficient.
Brown: And Mr. Davis, let’s talk about what teachers think about the EOGs and the EOCs, whether they think they are an accurate measure of where their students stand.

Davis: Well, testing is always an interesting issue for teachers. I often hear that many teachers feel that students have done very well, that they can almost predict the students that will score at a proficient level. Others say that there are sometimes issues around test anxiety and students may not always perform on that particular day as they know those kids might be able to perform from their performance over their entire year. So there are some issues around that. And of course there is constantly the discussion about how much testing should we have, whether or not the actual test that is taken should be the measure, whether or not there should be ways that we can prepare kids by giving intermediate tests in the schools to get them ready for their actual test days. So there is a long list of issues that teachers have about the testing program, but in many cases-in most cases-teachers understand that testing is a necessary issue that they have to deal with on the state and the national levels.

Brown: All right, thank you for that. And Ms. Dunston, tell us just briefly what is an education advocate, what exactly do you do, and then from there talk about how fair or accurate the test is from your point of view.

Dunston: An education advocate can be anyone; I just happen to be someone who is paid to do this position that I love to do. Basically what I do is I work with parents and communities to help them understand the education system. I help parents through a training program that we have in which we teach parents the skills that they need to not only be advocates for their children, but for all children. And so that’s the goal around the training piece. We also do some policy work. We look at policies and practices that may be in place in the education system, and we look at, are those policies and practices things that impede the progress for students or are those things that help promote progress? And so in doing that-and what was the other question?

Brown: Well just how fair or accurate do you see the EOCs and the EOGs, given what you do?

Dunston: Well, one of the issues that advocates and often parents have with the EOCs or end of grade testing program is that oftentimes those tests may not be geared toward minority or African-American students, and we believe that a test shouldn’t be the only measure of a student’s success. It should just be one measure, that there should also be assessment of how well that student is doing in the classroom. Parents should also have an input into how well they think that the children are doing. And so to say fair or not fair could be a two-headed sword, but we do think it is a measure that should be used to help students and not punish or hinder them.

Atkinson: As we look at test scores we really need to know that they really are just a snapshot and that there are other measures that are critical in determining how well our students are doing.

Brown: Well I think that we’re going to look at some statistics that will probably bear out what you just said, Dr. Atkinson. And we’re going to talk more with our guests in a moment. But first we’d like to share with you some of the statistics from North Carolina’s EOG and EOC exams to help put our discussion in perspective. According to figures from the North Carolina Justice Center’s 2006 report on the achievement gap entitled, Exposing the Gap, which is based on numbers reported by the Department of Public Instruction, in the 2000-2001 school year an average of just over 71% of all students grades three through eight scored at or above level three on their math and reading end of grade exams. However when the numbers are broken down by race we see that around 80% of white students performed at or above level three, compared to around 60% for Hispanic students and 50% for African-American students. The gap between black and white was 30 percentage points.

The following academic year, performance levels for all students improved by about three percentage points, and in 2003-2004 still more improvements were made. But in the 2004-2005 academic year, improvement seemed to level off with an average of almost 80% of all students performing at level three or above. And that broken down comes to approximately 80% of white students, 71.9% of Hispanic students, and 66% of African-American students. Even while all students gained in performance scores, the gap between black and white did shrink from 30 percentage points in 2000-2001 to 22 percentage points in 2004-2005, which is approximately eight points or about two points per year.

Now, though the minority gap persists, it is narrowing, but is it narrowing fast enough? Instead of end of grade exams, high school students take end of course exams in multiple subjects, including English, biology, algebra, chemistry, geometry and physics. Just taking a look at scores of high school students performing at or above grade level in algebra and English, in Algebra 1 for the 2000-2001 school year, 85% of white students scored at or above grade level, compared to 70% of Hispanic students and 57% of African-American students. Taking a look at the EOCs test scores in English 1 for that year, 78% of white students scored at or above grade level, compared to 53% of Hispanic students and 49% of African-American students.

We’ll skip to the scores through 2004-2005. In Algebra 1, 88% of white students, 72% of Hispanic students, and 63% of black students performed at or above grade level. For English 1 scores, 89% of white students performed at or above grade level, compared to 65% of Hispanic students and 70% of black students. Now these statistics may not only have been enough to make your head spin, but also left you with a big question which is “Why?” Here is what some African-Americans in the community are guessing has contributed to the problem.

Vance: It starts at home. If that child doesn’t have someone at home helping them with their homework or even have the capability of helping them with their homework, it’s going to be difficult for that child to continue and move on in school.
Lewis: I think that the not being prepped from the beginning, I mean, even to elementary school, to attend college eventually, and that manifests itself over the years so that the numbers start at half and half between black males and females while they’re in kindergarten, and then it declines and declines. And by the time they hit middle school in some cities they drop out. So I think the lack of encouragement.

Stone: Part of it, it’s economic. ETS has published a table showing the correlation between family income and SAT scores. The higher the family income, the higher the SAT score. And yet a white kid who has a family income of $7000 scores higher on the SAT than a black student whose family income is $45,000.

Williams: I think it’s several factors. I don’t think you can put it on one thing. I think there need to be more African-Americans in the classroom, more African-American teachers, I should say, in the classrooms. And I think African-American students need to study more. I think African-American males, I should say, because those are the ones that have really fallen behind. They’re a unique breed, I mean, they’re aggressive, they’re loud, and in some instances, particularly younger ones, and it takes-and by being aggressive and loud is not necessarily a bad thing, but you have to understand the cultural aspect of them being aggressive is not a threatening thing, it’s just a thing that perhaps the non-African-American may not understand.

Nettles: It’s a long term proposition to close the achievement gap, and I think we’ve taken the first step. There are many steps to come. The first step is to acknowledge that we have one and to identify and particularly what it is, and we’ve made great strides in trying to express, identify what the achievement gap is and express it in quantitative terms. That’s the first step. The next step is now to think about strategies for closing it, and we are making some progress in that. We are moving toward identifying practices that work. We’re identifying how much resource it takes and where resources should be spent. And then after we’ve accomplished that, learning about what it takes to do it, then we need a real massive effort in the country to implement some strategies on a broad scale.

Brown: For those of you just joining us, we’re talking about the achievement gap that has existed for decades between black and white students. Recent state reports indicates that the gap is closing, but some education advocates say that the gap should be much smaller than it currently is. Again we’re with state Superintendent of Public Instruction, June Atkinson; President of the NCAE, Eddie Davis; and education advocate with the North Carolina Justice Center, Angela Dunston. Before we begin our discussion again, I need to correct myself. Viewers, I made a mistake. In 2004-2005, 88% of white students grades three through eight scored at or above level three; I’m not sure what I said, but I did make a mistake there.

So let’s get back to some questions, and I’ll start with you, Dr. Atkinson. Is the achievement gap indeed narrowing or not?

Atkinson: Trends show us that the achievement gap is narrowing. However it’s not narrowing as fast as it needs to do. We have to make sure that all of our children are prepared for the competitive workplace and further education and life in the 21st century. And so consequently we have to accelerate our efforts, we have to bring to the forefront again and again the importance of all students achieving at high levels.

Brown: I’m going to get to you, Mr. Davis, in one moment. But Ms. Dunston, I’d like to ask you the same question. From your perspective is the achievement gap indeed narrowing or not?

Dunston: I guess the immediate response would be, yes, it is narrowing between students in grades three through eight. But as you look at the data a little more closely what you notice is that it is narrowing at the lower end of the perspective. What we see is students who are at the lowest achieving levels, the gap is narrowing there. But then we also see a widening of the gap as we look at students who are higher performance. Students who are at level three and four. There is a widening of the gap there. And so I think it then begs the question as to as we say, is it truly narrowing? It’s almost a yes and a no answer. But what we’ve got to do is to make sure that we are committed to ensuring that the gap is closed at both ends of the spectrum and not spending as much of our energy and resources on the lower end and then sacrificing the children at the top at that expense.

Brown: Okay, so I just want to clarify what you just said. Basically you are saying that the achievement gap is narrowing but there is a discrepancy between high performing and low performing African Americans students?

Dunston: Yes.

Brown: African American students that are the low end of the spectrum are actually-the gap between their performance and white students is narrowing but between students, African American student at the higher end of the spectrum, it is not. And that is a very interesting, it’s very interesting discrepancy. Mr. Davis, tell us from your standpoint and definitely from the teachers that you advocate for, their standpoint, are teachers responsible for doing more to narrow this gap and especially this discrepancy between low performing and high performing African American students, how do we forge that gap?

Davis: Well, I think teachers are the bulk of the people who are working with the children every single day in the schools. So they, indeed, do have a major responsibility and I think we ought to applaud the progress that has been made over the last few years because teachers certainly have understood a curriculum that they are teaching and they have done a lot of work dealing with individual students and remediating and giving them the extra work that they need to indeed narrow that gap. Does there need to be more done with individual students? I certainly want to see us do more and I think that every teacher that you would see would want to see that. But there has to be a more comprehensive and broad net that will be cast to make sure that parents are doing everything that they can to have children coming in ready to work, having kids ready to sit down and focus and concentrate on the lessons that are being taught, that students have to be able to, particularly as they get older, try to make a connection between the lessons that are being taught today and the future aspirations that they have. Teachers have to make sure that they are culturally competent, understanding all of the issues that go into the makeup of an individual student and whether or not they may be jumping to some conclusions about the abilities of students if they have to work beyond that outward shell that students sometimes put up.

And I think the communities have to make sure that they are willing to work with parents to give them the understanding and the wherewithal to help their children to achieve. I think most of us on this panel and probably most of the people who are looking at this program this afternoon, probably are working directly working with their individual children and students to make sure that they are given all of the advantages that will get them to a successful life. Many parents don’t know how to do that and what we have to do and I am sure that is Angela is doing as well as students, teachers in the schools and officials on the state level are doing that, too. But we got to get a larger group of people who will make this a campaign, a crusade almost to make sure that every child can achieve and behave at the levels at which they have abilities to do.

Brown: All right. Dr. Atkinson, in light of what Mr. Davis said, are we putting too much onus on teachers and at the same time do we need to do more professional development for teachers so that they understand the cultural differences?
Atkinson: Certainly the issue is a complex one but teachers are the key. And in order for teachers to do that which they need to do in the classroom they do need to have professional development that would help them understand different cultures. They need assistance in teaching in engaging ways to the sight and sound generation that we have in our schools. And we also need to make sure that we help our counselors understand and our parents understand that taking a rigorous course of study in high school is key. So we as teenagers will sometimes want to take the course of, say, least resistance, where we don’t have as much work to do. But we know that the course-taking pattern will have an affect on student achievement. And I know in 2000 we had a small number of African American students taking advanced placement courses. And that number has increased by 75%. That’s the good news. But the bad news is that we started at such a low number that we really are not tapping the potential that we know we can reach. And so I would encourage parents and people who work with parent advocates and who work with parents to tell children to insist that students take rigorous courses of study. And of course, those rigorous courses of study must be placed hand in hand with extra help and assistance for students.

Brown: Ms. Dunston, it seems that some students, African American students, would shy away from pursuing the very courses, say, that Dr. Atkinson is talking about because from before middle school, before the EOGs really come into affect, they haven’t really been encouraged to pursue any particular course of study. But perhaps they haven’t really been understood in the classroom. So I’m wondering from your perspective, what have you observed as far as black students are concerned with how teachers deal with them in the classroom and if this sort of professional development that we have spoken of is actually taking place to help teachers to be, I guess, more encouraging in the earlier grades.

Dunston: You know, I think there is always the opportunity to encourage teachers to continue to have even more professional development. And one of the things that Eddie mentioned was the issue of cultural competency, a cultural responsiveness. One of the problems that we find is that-well, one of the issues now is that the majority of students in our schools are ethnically and racially diverse. Yet the workforce is almost predominantly white, female, middle class teachers. And so one of the things that we have to make sure is that those teachers have opportunities to learn about the cultures of those students who are coming into those classrooms and to understand that when a student is sometimes being excessively talkative to a teacher, it may be a part of the norm. Now, we don’t want those student to disrupt the class but we need to make sure that our teachers understand how to not only manage those classes or those students who are excessive but also encourage those students to be their best and to be academically successful when they are in those classrooms.

Brown: Mr. Davis, there was an article that came out recently in the Charlotte Observer that basically said that the truth of the success or the truth about the success of the end of grade test and the closing of the achievement gap is that there really is-because there are kind of low standards that are set allowing students to really only answer a certain low percentage of questions correctly and not requiring them to even complete the whole test, that this is going to skew the actual numbers. Just wondering what your comment would be about that sort of banner headline.

Davis: Sure. Well, I think there has been a lot of discussion about that. to the credit of the state board they are looking at the whole concept of raising the bar and I think that that’s where we need to be looking to make sure that there is rigor, that we are asking students to do more to demonstrate how much they know, we’re asking teachers to make sure that they push students to do all that they can and we are asking parents to help us to deal with that. Whether or not and I don’t know all of the cycle metric issues that are involved with how they come up with those issues. We trust the staff at DPI and other experts that we may have. But the whole idea is that as we move, as student’s progress we’ve got to continue to expect more from them and deal with raising the rigor level for them. Now, what we have got to do is to make sure that students understand that and that they meet the expectations that we have for them.

Brown: I’m sorry. One moment, Ms. Dunston. But, Dr, Atkinson, I just need for you to just tell us one way or the other, is it true that students only have to answer-I think the article said 33% of the questions correctly in order for their score to be at a level three or above or is the Charlotte Observer blowing smoke?

Atkinson: Well, certainly setting standards is a very complex issue and I feel confident that the state board of education will continue to raise standards. This past year the state board of education changed formulas or approved the change of formulas. We also implemented a more rigorous curriculum in mathematics and I feel confident that the state board of education will raise standards and that those standards will be more aligned with a national assessment called the National Assessment of Educational Progress.

Brown: Thank you. And, Angela, I am going to-Ms. Dunston. I’m sorry. You as I know Ms. Dunston. But I’m going to give you the last word and just tell us what should our viewers take from this discussion? What would you want them to know?

Dunston: You know, Natalie, Ms. Brown. [LAUGHTER] What I would really love to happen in this No Child Left Behind era is for us not to concentrate on testing so much. But it’s here and we’ve got to deal with it. But I think the bigger issue is that we are ensuring that all children are being successful. We are making sure that whatever the test scores may be or whether there is a fiasco or not within the test scores that we are providing students with the resources and services that they need to be academically successful, that we are providing them with qualified teachers and competent administrators, that we are giving them the technology resources that they need. And whatever it is that those student need to be successful, as long as we are ensuring that we providing those services then whether this is something that is a phenomenon or is actually something that is happening, we are still ensuring that those children are being successful no matter what.

Brown: Well, thank you to all three of you. We appreciate so much you being here today. Our sincere appreciation and thanks to June Atkinson, Eddie Davis and Angela Dunston for sharing their insights with us today. If you would like to learn more about the work of our guests or today’s topic, please visit the Black Issues Forum website at www.unctv.org/bif. We’d also like to hear your feedback and suggestions so send us an email. Or you can call the BIFLine at 919-549-7167. Be sure to meet us back here each Sunday afternoon at 4:30. For Black Issues Forum, I’m Natalie Bullock-Brown reminding you to be encouraged no matter what. Have a good one.

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