2006-07 Broadcast Season
Broadcast Program Transcripts
Episode #2208
Before You Give Another Penny
Brown: Natalie Bullock-Brown: Host
Lindsay: Athan Lindsay
Fullwood: Valaida Fullwood
Lester: Darryl Lester
Brown:The holidays are a notable time for giving, but before you give another penny, you might want to hear what our next guests have to say about a financially smart way to give, next on Black Issues Forum.
Voiceover: Quality Public Television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you. We invite you to join them in supporting UNC TV.
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Brown: Hello everyone. Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I’m Natalie Bullock-Brown. When it comes to giving away money, you may be surprised to know that African-Americans are big givers. In fact, an article published by The Chronicle of Philanthropy found that blacks donate 25% more of their discretionary income than whites. Black Enterprise Magazine recently reported that on average, black households give around $1,600 per year to their favorite causes, not including tithing and church contributions. And a Chicago-based research firm found that in 2004, African-American gave away $11.4 billion in charitable contributions. There is no question African-Americans are giving, but are you? If you are not a part of the philanthropy world, there are some things you may be missing on for lack of information. And if you are a part of that world, what do you need to know to make your giving really count for those of you who give and also for yourself?
Our guests today work in the trenches of philanthropy and are founders of a new trend in giving called giving circles. I’d like to introduce Daryl Lester who established the first giving circle in Raleigh called NGAAP or Next Generation of African-American Philanthropists. He also runs his own consulting firm to help build networks for community-based giving. We also have Athan Lindsay who recently received the Association of Black Foundation Executives 2006 emerging leader in philanthropy award, which recognizes the accomplishments and contributions of workers in the philanthropic sector under the age of 40. Athan is also cofounder of NGAAP and has established his own foundation called the Lindsay Legacy fund. And we also have Valaida Fullwood, a consultant and writer working in philanthropy and nonprofits, and also a three year member of the African-American Community Foundation’s board of directors. Welcome to all of you.
Daryl, I’m going to start off with you. Now, it is obvious according to report that African-Americans are giving both in time and money, but it has been said that African-Americans have found conventional philanthropy difficult to access. So can you define the term philanthropy for us first and foremost?
Lester: Well, from Daryl’s perspective it is the time, talent and treasure that really defines philanthropy. I think in the institutional world of philanthropy it is really defined by the treasure that one has—their money particularly. And so what we try to do is really expand that definition to include people’s time, somebody’s know-how as well as the resources that they also have that they give.
And I think that it is starting to be more of a universal way of looking at it, because if you look at different traditions there has always been that giving and serving that have always been linked together, as well as what people bring to the table as their own resources.
Brown: What does philanthropy literally mean? What is the root of what you do? And also explain time, talent and treasure.
Lester: I think in the Webster’s basic definition you are talking about the love of human kind or the love of man kind. But I think over time we’ve moved away from that love of humanity and love each other to more of being—it has been looking at the wealth that somebody has—the dollars that somebody has, but not also encompassing that we shared sugar, we shared flour; you may have been in crisis and I helped you. So I think we’re starting to see a broader and more inclusive definition of philanthropy.
Brown: I’ll stick with you for one more moment, and talk about how conventional philanthropy and what, I guess, it doesn’t allow for that created the need for giving circles.
Lester: I think just by the nature of defining it narrowly and not thinking about one’s time and talent or know-how. And so when we look at institutional philanthropy, which, you know, we are very giving in our country. And so as those institutions were set up, it became really based on what people could bring to the table around their money. And so a lot of other folk’s traditions of giving that included all three of those tenants were not included. So the institutions really begin to really focus on those that could bring money, so that meant they were beginning to focus on those that have what they called the surplus. They were in that wealthy category. And so for the working-class person, who helps them to think about their giving, and how do we get them more engaged to strategically think about that?
So I think there emerges one tool called the giving circle that can help the working class folks, and I would say folks that are in another category, to be engaged in philanthropy—of giving of their time, their talent and of their treasure. And so here comes this emergent—this new vehicle or new tool to help people be engaged and not just focus on that top 20%.
Brown: Athan, both you and Daryl co-founded the giving circle in Raleigh called NGAAP. Can you tell us about NGAAP? Why? I guess what was the impetus behind you guys starting it.
Lindsay: I’d say we co-founded it along with about 19 other individuals, so I think it came up—first, a lot of the vision came out from Daryl, some things that we both had kind of shared working in philanthropy. I think we both, I guess, with divine intervention we’d have it. We were always struck with being at decision tables as grand officers at foundations. Well, I know on my end working at private family foundations, not seeing African-American folks being in the equation to help make the decisions, but also giving I a strategic manner, or just understanding what philanthropy is and what is going on. Because philanthropy carries a lot of influence and power in some cases, and often times you could feel the burden of having to make the discussions about these discussions about these decisions as a staff person. Also you find out a lot about what people feel and more importantly what you feel when you’re trying to give away other people’s money. So I think one of it was just always trying to be cognizant of the fact that in the beginning there’s always been structural barriers, and part of philanthropy, like other institutions in America, we’ve lived in a period where African-American folks weren’t allowed to participate and weren’t welcome. So we had finally, I think, gotten to an opportunity where we were privileged. And I think it is the legacy of the Civil Rights Movement and what people fought for. We got access to the knowledge, and I think it was incumbent upon Daryl and I to want to share this with others.
Other people who decided that they wanted to do something, and whatever that something may be that affected African-American folks or what have you, but doing something in this whole big world, if you look at all the data and statistics about how African-American folks are doing it is pretty overwhelming, and so we were just saying, “How can we do this together,” and at the same time, increasing people’s knowledge about this tool of philanthropy. I think we’re coming into the generation where most of us were probably the first or even the second generation where we have unencumbered access to wealth and wealth gaining. And I think, you know, we spend so much time acquiring our wealth, you know, why not do some time planning it—planning what we’re going to do it with when we have it now, but more importantly, what do we do when we leave? You know, what is our legacy behind it. I think that is what we came together with what we’re doing. And in a sense, rebuilding a sense of community, because the community that my mother grew up in is not like what I grew up in, but recording that kind of affinity for each other, that is kind of how it went.
Brown: Just in the interest of full disclosure, I just want our viewers to know that I am a part of the Next Generation of African-American Philanthropists. I just want you all to know that. Valaida, let’s go to you. You are part of a giving circle. You are a founding member of a new giving circle, same acronym, it is Next Generation of African-American Philanthropists, but tell us why—what the impetus is behind your giving circle and why you feel it is necessary to be a part of it. What do you hope to accomplish?
Fullwood: Well, I had the fortune of hearing the message of Athan and Daryl as they spoke of giving circles and shared information on the broader definition of philanthropy—a more inclusive definition of philanthropy. And I was really struck by that message. I knew part of my family tradition was giving, but never put the big term philanthropy over it. And in hearing Daryl’s and Athan’s presentations and viewing their information it really broadened my thinking and helped me on the fact that I am a philanthropist and come from a long line of philanthropists. I wanted to share that kind of awareness and experience and learning with others. And I, again, met these two through my services. I volunteer on the board of the African-American Community Foundation, and others on the board felt a similar interest and so we created some space to help get a giving circle started, so we have just begun. It has only been about six months that we’ve been brining people together and beginning the conversation—beginning that education and forming a circle, and I’m very excited about it.
Brown: Let me stay with you for a moment Valaida, because I know talking to you earlier, you mentioned that your giving circle is in the process of trying to figure out how much each person will contribute. And from your experience working in philanthropy, talk about how people maybe get afraid—become afraid that they don’t have enough to contribute, and how people should begin to think about what their contribution can be or is already.
Fullwood: Several years ago I had an opportunity to participate in sort of a collective giving model. It wasn’t quite a giving circle. It was a one-year program and it was in a particular affinity group other than, I guess, emerging leaders or young professionals. And so that was the beginning of some of my education to organize philanthropy and the whole concept of full giving. And it was a bit of a stretch, but I paid the $500 to be a part of that and really saw the value of it. And then subsequently, tried to engage some of my friends to participate in the program, and that $500 commitment to a program or a experience that they didn’t quite buy in to or didn’t quite understand was a hard sell. I had a few willing takers, and in fact, sometimes matches from their company was a help. And so I saw some of the, I guess, distinct challenges for African-Americans putting that kind of money, which is pretty significant, into an entity that you are unfamiliar with and people that you don’t know. It was really difficult.
And that is why a giving circle, African-American giving circles are particularly appealing because you get help with it from people that you know or are beginning to know in a more familiar context. So perhaps by having that sort of safety net and that familiar context, people might be wiling to stretch, give and write the check for whatever amount, whether it is $100 or $1,000.
Brown: Daryl, it has been said that when you give it just feels so good. But beyond that, I think African-Americans, maybe not in particular, but certainly African-Americans are going to want to know how else can my giving benefit me as well as my community.
Lester: Well, you know, I think we look at the evolution from what we call self help, you know, to giving back. As our giving is evolved, and like Valaida said, think the one thing that we still wrestle with is that conversation about one’s abundance or surplus. And so for a lot of folks we had to go through that self-reflection of what is it that I have that I think that I can give. And for a lot of folks we get stuck, because we don’t see the evidence that we have a lot of stuff. And so, for a lot of stuff, they don’t start having that conversation and doing that planning until they think they’ve accumulated. So part of that is getting people past that, to realize that—my mother used to always tell me, “There is always going to be somebody worse off than you are.”
So thinking about what we have from our time and our talent to whatever treasure we may have, helps us to begin the process. I think that once we’ve decided that we have the will to do something, there are so many ways in which you can plug in. I would say there is a heady part and a heart part of this conversation. The heady part is those folks that may approach it around, “Well, it is the end of the year, there might be some tax benefits to this thing. I may want to enter into it that way.” But there are going to be some other folks, that because of how they were raised and the experience that they’ve had in their lives will say, “You know what? I really want to do this because this is what I value. This is what I care about.”
So people begin to have a values clarification conversation. To I forgo having that over there so I can really be engaged in a piece over here that brings me bigger psychic rewards, gives me a greater meaning for living my life. Versus me saying, “Well, I’m going to accumulate all this stuff, that sometimes doesn’t give me the meaning of me living.” So I think there are these journeys that folks go through, so we have to make space for people to do that and not say, “You are this way because you don’t do it.” If we make a space for people, which is what giving circles do—give people the space to do some values clarification around what they really care about.
Brown: Athan, one thing that Daryl brought up is the head part of this conversation. There are people that are going to think, “Well, I want to get the tax benefit, I may want to get some recognition for giving.” Is there a right or wrong? I mean, is there a certain way that people should ultimately aspire to think about giving? Or is there anything wrong with someone giving because they want the tax benefits, they want somebody to know that they gave and, you know, whatever else is going to make them feel good about themselves?
Lindsay: Well, I’ll say there is no wrong way. I think the only wrong way is for people not to get involved. As far as the tax benefit, I’m from the Edith Lindsay school of thought—that is my grandmother. I’m getting everything for her that she couldn’t get. So I say it is critically important for us to become better informed about the tax benefits—these other things out here. Because one, if people are talking about serious financial planning, it is set up, and it is a shame for us not to partake in it and utilize it.
As far as some of the other, and this is the world according to Athan, I think if we want to be serious about how we give back to our society, philanthropy is starting to be looked at the way people are civically involved. Whether you believe that or not, it is there. And when we come to the table, there is this whole sector called the nonprofit world, and everyone is familiar with the grant side or how to go get grants and what have you, but when you think about being on the supply side it is about influencing and changing thing.
That leads down the road. If you do this long enough, you can influence policy—things that really affect you. I think, I’ve seen—being a part of the giving circle, I think the greatest thing I’ve seen is how it has inspired people who always want to do something, but coming to the table, getting educated and figuring out how to do things, just in a sense, they got the inspiration to do it.
Brown:Let me stop you for one second. I just want to clarify. So you are saying that by being a part of a giving circle, which admittedly is one tool and one way to get involved, you actually can ultimately impact change—meaningful change in society through policy. I mean, you can change lives?
Lester: Or you can change your own life. More importantly, I think of several folks who are a part of our giving circle, they have been in there three years, and we’ve seen people who were doing something and now they’ve kind of learned some of the structure and different ways of doing things. We’ve someone who has gone and opened a barber school for x-offenders. I mean, by getting exposed to philanthropy and seeing how he could do what he believed in. We’ve seen members who are taking students to colleges and just getting involved in giving, but also understanding the tool. I think it encourages people to get involved and see how they could do it.
And I think the policy piece of it is something that gets along down the road, but I think what I see people becoming—just better informed and concerned citizens.
Brown: That’s it. Valaida, talk about the time and talent part of philanthropy, because I think clearly, most people think about philanthropy in terms of how much money am I giving to someone or something? So what does the time and talent portion deal with?
Fullwood: The time is volunteer service, it is the research on topics before you give the money. Examples would be my board service for the African-American Community Foundation and I volunteer to help coordinate the formation of the giving circle. Having everybody come together takes a lot of planning and a lot of email exchanges and phone calls. And I think of this as my contribution of time and my talent in coordinating and organizing things. And I think more people can get involved that way, and I think giving circles and other programs within mainstream philanthropy or organized philanthropy offer some channels for people to do that.
A lot of people call me and ask me because they think I’m in the know, partly because of some of the work I do and because of my volunteer service. And when they want to give back, want to do something about public schools or something with youth or something with seniors in the community, they call me and ask me. And I try to be as big of a help as I can, and I just have the fortune to having some access to some information—maybe they haven’t. So I introduce them to those sources of information and those people and those places that they can go and find how best to make the match—what their interest are, what their passions are, and whatever time they have to give to that organization.
Brown: Daryl, strategically, what are advantages of a giving circle over, let’s say, a charitable fund or a foundation or all relatively equal in how they can help you to impact change?
Lester: I try not to compare, because I think when you look at the different tools that are out there, they work for where a person is in their life. For me, when I think about the giving circle model, I think there are always hurdles for folks entering into being strategic with their giving. So we always have to think about how much access is it for folks to get engaged in doing this? One thing the giving circle does is allow folks to be able to get in at a level that is not based on, again, not based on surplus. It is based on where people are around their will. And so the giving circle becomes that first step into learning more about how I’d be more strategic in the giving.
There are community foundations that are out there, they are __ mission, there are private family foundations. The giving circle, in my opinion, gets folks a little closer to the community foundation __ as well as other organizations that serve as hosts for charitable funds. So once I get to the table, I start to learn a whole lot about stuff that I probably only knew a little bit about. So that is where it begins.
Because foundations—institutional philanthropy, on the scale of things, they don’t add up, so I never try to compare them. When we get into that, folks will try to downplay the impact that a giving circle can have of a group of concerned citizen who come together with their time, talent and money and can make a big difference if they place their lever in the right place. They are not trying to be the Community Foundation. They are really trying to say, “We may not be able to play at that level, but we can be engaged at this level that can have just as much impact as what is happening at the other level.”
Brown: I’ve got you. Athan, I know you have the Lindsay Legacy Fund. Tell us why you determined that that would be a good route for you to go with the way that you want to give.
Lindsay: Well, I think something that resonated with me and my good friend here Daryl, is one night we were having dinner and we were just amazed at how many people work in the field of philanthropy and don’t actually utilize the tool. As I was saying, it is kind of hard to ask people to do this if you don’t exercise it yourself.
That was one side of it, but then also I was thinking about the lessons that my grandmother and my mother imparted to us. It was always about giving and reasonable service. And I’ve benefited a lot from people giving things to me, from scholarships, to being supported by my church to travel abroad and stuffy. But I said I wanted to leave a different legacy. It is something that I do anyway—it is a way to organize it. I think it made me become a better steward of what I was given charge over. And I think just really, you know, self interested. Why is it I wanted to leave a legacy? At the time, I don’t have children or anything right now, but even when I do have children, there is going to be something that we can go on and say, “This is our legacy,” and when people look at the face of the Lindsay Family, they’ll see some folks who don’t necessarily look like RJ Reynolds or the Warner Foundation—typically white folks. But that is important to me because I think I’m relevant.
Brown: I’ve got you, and you are relevant. And Valaida and Daryl, I want to try and get around to all of you, so in one sentence, tell our viewers what they need to do next to get involved right now—what should they do?
Fullwood: I would advise people to take an assessment of what they feel really passionate about. What has influenced their life? And then begin to research and learn who is doing work in that area in their own community and how they can get involved.
Brown: Daryl, what is the first step to starting a giving circle or getting involved in one?
Lester: Well, I think on a very basic level, folks have got to take some assessment of—you know, we have this conversation about our community as it is and the community as we wish it to be. The things that get us frustrated, the things we come and say, “Why is that the way it is?” I think folks need to start thinking about, “How do I go past just me griping about what is wrong in the world or my community?” And so start with where you have your passion.
And then for us, when we bring friends to the house to have food and fellowship, let’s put on the table—let’s see if we can become more engaged in the community as it is. I don’t think any of us will put here just to go to work all day, accumulate a house, accumulate all types of stuff, and then we can transition on to another life or something, you know, or we pass away.
I think there is more purpose for us being here, and I think we do have to be intentional with the space that we have to get people to think more about what value they have in our society. So starting there, just inviting folks over for a conversation, it could be a lunch or a dinner or a breakfast. But I guess I always say it is upping the ante. If we’re going to sit and complain about it, then we have the responsibility to think about how we make it better. And so I think wherever we fellowship and convene is a place. So if it is at your church or your faith institution we need to have those conversations, if it is a part of our investment club that came to do investment that returns to ourselves, now we need to think about how to return the investment back to the community. I always say it is not rocket science—just start where you are.
Brown: Doing your reasonable service. All right. I’d like to thank Daryl Lester, Athan Lindsay and Valaida Fullwood for sharing their expertise with us today. And if you’d like more information about the work our guests and today’s discussion, visit us on line at unctv.org/bif. You can also call us on the BIF line at 919-546-7076. For Black Issues Forum, I’m Natalie Bullock Brown reminding you to be encouraged no matter what. Have a good one.
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