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Episode #2218
2007 North Carolina Black Summit
B-Brown: Welcome to Black Issues Forum. I’m Natalie Bullock-Brown. Black America has had a lot to think about in light of recent racially charged incidents, and add to that the racial disparities that continue to persist in wealth, education, health and justice to name a few. And we have enough to talk about for the next year or more, but are people tired of talking about black issues, as it were, or tired of hearing about the problems? Well, these are a few of the questions fueling today’s discussion. We’re at the Brownstone Hotel in Raleigh for the annual meeting of the North Carolina Alliance of Black Elected Officials, a group whose members include the North Carolina Legislative Black Caucus, the North Carolina Association of Black County Officials, the North Carolina conference of black mayors, the North Carolina black elected municipal officials and North Carolina black school board members as well as several partner organizations.
The question we’re asking today is, “Do African American issues still matter, especially in this age of globalization and increasing diversity?” And we’re proud to have such a distinguished panel of guests. I’d like to introduce state representative Alma Adams, who represents the 58th district, and is chair of the North Carolina legislative black caucus. We also have with us Dr. Forrest Toms, a nationally recognized psychologist who serves on the boards and commissions of numerous organizations, including the North Carolina race and achievement and closing the gap commission. We’re also proud to have Carnell Robinson, President of North Carolina Black Leadership Caucus and former Dunn city council person and community activist. We also have with us Andrea Harris, President of the North Carolina Institute of Minority Business and Economic Development, and last but not least Dr. Jim Johnson, William R. Keenan, Jr. Distinguished Professor of Entrepreneurship at UNC Chapel Hill, and Director of the urban investment strategy center. Welcome all of you to Black Issues Forum.
Now, let’s start off with basically the question that I posed in my intro, which is, do black issues matter, especially in light of globalization and increasing diversity, and let’s start with you, Dr. Toms.
Toms: Thank you. I definitely think black issues matter, particularly when we look across education, we look at health care, mental health and community reinvestment. These are all critical issues to the African American community, and these issues I think have to be addressed on multiple levels. One of the things that I think is crucial right now within context of globalization is the fact that I think we’re going to have to put more focus on this whole notion of community engagement, and mobilization, making sure that we’re keeping the community involved and invested in these issues that impacted.
B-Brown: Dr. Harris, how would you respond to that question?
Harris: Well, I think that with a country that has as large an African American population base as this country, and in a state, where you have over 20% of your population is African American, if we are going to be globally competitive, then we have to embrace and look at all sectors of the community, and in particular now, I think, more so than ever before. We should look at it one as an asset, but two, you have to figure out as Dr. Toms just said, how are we going to take full advantage of all the people, and how are we going to engage all of our people? We have lots of positive things that are happening, and then at the same time we have still have some challenges, but even if we were to look in North Carolina, if you take a state that has 52,000 African American-owned business employing 40,000 people, then you look at being globally competitive, then that’s a tremendous asset.
B-Brown: Absolutely. Dr. Johnson?
Johnson: Absolutely. I think it’s imperative that African Americans be actively involved in the global game today, in large part because we are an increasing share of the population in the future, and it becomes a form of enlightened self interest for us to invest in education and to deal with the seemingly intractable problems associated with the criminal justice system and the like. These are competitiveness issues; yes, they are social and moral issues, but at the end of the day, our ability to compete, thrive and prosper is going to hinge upon our ability to fix seemingly intractable problems in our community. Our nation is at stake of losing its competitive edge if we don’t invest in these issues and see them not as just African American issues, but as national competitiveness issues for us.
B-Brown: Mr. Robinson, what would be your response?
Robinson: African American issues are absolutely important, in a globalized world and a world where technology has made us, forced us, to compete. If we fail to allow the American dream to exist, in anything but living color, and that includes African Americans, than we’re not going to be competitive and we cannot afford to not expend the resources that allow every segment of our community to be competitive, economically competitive, intellectually competitive, we simply have to allow and focus on addressing those issues which impact the African American community in order to strengthen the American community.
B-Brown: Rep. Adams, I want you to respond to the same question, but I’d also like for you to look at it from a slightly different perspective, which is, why do we even need to ask the question whether or not black issues still matter?
Adams: Well, black people are still here and we’re going to be here, and I think for that reason alone we need to make sure that we are part of this process. You know, North Carolina has a very large sector of African Americans; I think, as Ms. Harris has said, 20%, and it’s probably a little more than that, but we have to continue to compete. We do have some challenges. We’ve had a number of successes, but clearly we have a lot left to do. If we are going to become competitive, then we must understand what that means and how we must be involved. If we don’t get involved, than people are going to X us out, and so I think it’s important, our issues always matter, they matter to us and they should matter to everyone else that we interact with.
B-Brown: Let me throw out an issue that happened recently that we’re all familiar with, and that’s the remarks made by talk show host Don Imus. In light of the reaction to his remarks, and the resulting actions taken against him, number one, do you think there was enough attention paid to what he said. Number two, do you think the reaction fit the crime? I’ll start with you, Mr. Robinson. We’ll come back this way.
Robinson: I think Imus is the tip of the iceberg. I think he is reflecting some of the breakdown in our society and our values for human beings. I think it’s good the punishment fits the crime, but more importantly, it began a national debate that is essential at this point. I think at some point we have got to go back and say that there are standards of behavior, and those people who publicize the kind of music and videos that are very damaging to our children and our society as a whole, Imus did us a service. He put the conversation back on the table.
B-Brown: I will skip quickly to Dr. Toms, what is your response?
Toms: Well, I had this conversation last week in the training. I think one of the things that came out of it for me and a number of people that I’ve talked with, is the fact that in the nationwide discussion of the Imus issue is what kind of goes over the top is the fact that what he said, and the languaging [ph], happens on a day-to-day basis. In boardrooms, whether it’s the health department, education, and it talks about the personal responsibility that we have to challenge people on their languaging, in terms of what they’re saying, and the impact that it has, because what bothers me to some degree, yes, I think the national conversation is great about it. But what happens, when I look around in board meetings where decisions and policies are being made, distribution of resources, you see these same patterns of things, but we’re not having a conversation about it at that level, but I agree with the gentleman that yes, it started the dialogue, and it’s a must. It’s one of these dialogues that’s not going to go away. We have to actively and intentionally engage the implications of race, of diversity, and how we relate to people other than our own group.
B-Brown: Dr. Johnson, what would you say the whole Imus incident reflects on how our country deals with African American issues period?
Johnson: I think it’s emblematic of the enduring significance of race in our society. I think it reflects the growing inequality in our society, and what it says to you is that even when you play by the rules, and do really, really well, and be beautiful like the black women on the Rutgers basketball team, you are not immune from that kind of treatment. But what’s important for us, I think , is to use this to develop a proactive agenda for all the other kids left behind that right now don’t have the shot to be on the Rutgers basketball team, or to go to college anywhere for that matter, and then we have to work with all of our kids to protect them from that kind of virulent racism, because it does do damage to you mentally and psychologically. But at the end of the day, it’s about competing in the economy, and I think our agenda has to be about, how do we ensure that all of our kids are equipped with the tools to compete with the volatile global economy, and all of the nonsense racism that we find and are confronted with on a daily basis. It’s not going to go away because the more diverse we become, the more this kind of stuff is going to present itself.
B-Brown: Yes, Ms. Harris?
Harris: I’d also say that this issue was not just an issue of race and gender, but it was also an issue of race and gender and class. If the exact same thing had happened, and it had happened not on a campus such as Rutgers, but in a poor neighborhood, in a black institution, it would not have gotten-the reverend said it being about a black institution, it would not have gotten the same type of response that it did. So we’ve had issues of race and class and gender, and I agree with Dr. Johnson, what we have to do is use this as not only a teaching moment but also an opportunity to act positively and proactively for the children. You cannot continuously allow such language in our community, without thinking at some point that some people are going to start-they’ve absorbed this, they believe this, we can look around in our communities at how young women think about themselves today, and there’s clear evidence that is has a negative impact on our community, so we have to figure out how we not just have a conversation about this and talk continuously about Imus, but what is it we can do that can be positive for a younger generation.
B-Brown: I want to go come back to this issue, because we want to talk about hip hop and that whole culture and how that perhaps played into the Imus incident, but I want to come to Rep. Adams and talk about North Carolina’s apology for slavery. The general assembly’s apology for slavery and segregation and call for all to participate in racial reconciliation was passed by both the House and the Senate in the state legislature. Tell us a little about this and how it came about.
Adams: Well, actually, I think there was a bill, it was a sort of copycat bill because I think it started in Maryland or some other state, and one of our senators actually sort of copied the bill, I think it was Sen. ___, a Caucasian gentleman, which makes that kind of interesting, and then we actually took the bill up in terms of copying that or making a duplicate bill in the House, Rep. Womble from Winston-Salem and I was one of the cosponsors on the bill as well. I think when you look at all that’s been going on in North Carolina and how we really did contribute to some of the issues around slavery, it was an opportunity for some sort of an opportunity to make amends for that. But, it had to go past just saying “We’re sorry for this,” and we thought of, at least the legislative black caucus and some of our members wanted to challenge our colleagues to say if you’re really serious about this, if it really does mean something, then it will be reflective in the legislation that we pass and whether or not we’re going to get equity in terms of some of the funding and all those kinds of things that have been problematic for us.
So it was an opportunity to sort of begin the process, to begin the dialogue, and there was a lot of discussion around it; there were some members who-I think everybody voted for it, I do believe it was a unanimous vote, but again, the vote itself, the vote should just stand alone as saying, “Okay, we apologize,” we have to consider what is next and what will we do, and so as we move forward now with the working on the state’s budget, which will probably be a $22 or $23 billion budget, but we want to make some determinations about how fair that process is going to be. That will tell us, are you just talking the talk, or can you walk the walk as well, and I think that we’ll be looking at that, and that’s the real challenge; to say you’re sorry is simply empty words if we don’t do something past that. But this was a way again to sort of put the issue on the table, to at least have some acknowledgement made, number one, that is exists. You can’t correct anything if you first of all don’t accept and acknowledge that there is a problem that exists, and I think once you do that, and you confront it head on, then you’re able to move on. So we’ll just have to kind of see what happens over the next several weeks as we get through this session and move forward.
B-Brown: Mr. Robinson, I’m interested to hear what you might suggest what the next steps should be, given what Rep. Adams just said.
Robinson: I think the next step is to embrace as the legislative black caucus has done, that package, that agenda package, which was commonly called the HKLNJ [ph] agenda which addresses many of the disparities in our community. But to echo what she said, I think it’s very important to noted that those resolutions passed unanimously in the House and the Senate, because one of the great arguments in addressing our issues with white folk is they say things like, “I never owned a slave,” or “There are no slaves here.” But by the simple passage of that resolution, if we can attach the fact that there are still long term issues that surround slavery, that it does in fact impact the community as well, the community’s help, all of these issues will we have disparities, than I think it’s the thing that we can do at this point, you asked the next step, is we can support the efforts of progressives and the legislative black caucus to make sure that these other people that we vote for and support are also supporting the issues that we need addressed.
B-Brown: Dr. Johnson, one of the issues that I think many would say that the African American community continues to grapples with today is education, the education of our children, integration in public schools and the continued segregation of our students. What are we missing, when we think about, or even when we try to address the issue of the public education of black children; what is missing from the solution? What has not been tried?
Johnson: Well, I think that first and foremost, this re-segregation of public education is one of the most challenging problems that we face today, this notion of equal opportunity of access to public education. But I think coming back to the notion of globalization and what does it mean, I think there is a real question of what kind of education we’re providing our kids today. The 17 lowest performing high schools in the state of North Carolina are 85% African American. Only 46% of the kids passed end of course tests in 2004-05. Only 59% of those kids took the SAT, and their mean score was 181 points below the statewide average. I think the clues to why those statistics are so dismal, it’s only 65% of the teachers in those schools are certified to teach the courses that they are supposed to be teaching. You have a 27% turnover rate in teachers every year, and if you look at funding for those schools, it is inequitable. And I think we have to attack those issues head on.
In the state of North Carolina African Americans contribute $44.7 billion to the North Carolina economy of 2004. They were responsible for the spin-off of 285,000 jobs in this state. You have to ask the question: are we getting a return on our investment? And we have to start from that point to launch a proactive agenda to ensure that our kids have equal access to opportunity and that they are able to compete, thrive and prosper in this global economy of the 21st century, and if we don’t do that, we as a state are going to be in deep, deep yogurt because it’s a competitive issue, it’s not just a racial issue. It’s going to hurt us in the global marketplace, because kids halfway around the world are cleaning our clocks. Even the most educated and brightest kids we have don’t compete globally today.
B-Brown: Ms. Harris, what would you add to that?
Harris: I would have to fully concur with what he is saying. There is something wrong with our values, and at some point we have to step back as a state and really check our values. What we’re willing to pay to incarcerate a young person as opposed to what we’re willing to pay to educate a younger person, I think, and if I’m correct on these numbers we may spend as much as $700 million per year ___ Dr. Johnson, incarcerating African Americans. That’s a lot of money. And when you look at what percentage of these young people are incarcerated for petty drug offenses, we could very easily help these people to come back into the community, and invest in giving people the types of literacy, the types of education, the types of support that are necessary and we spend more, and I’m going to ask Dr. Johnson for this figure ___ incarcerating people than we spend on our HBCUs [ph], am I correct?
Johnson: Actually, we spend $428 million a year incarcerating African Americans in the state of North Carolina; we only spend $328 million in the five historically black colleges in this state. We’d rather incarcerate than educate.
Harris: But when you look at that and then you look at what we spend on these young people who we have in the other programs that we consider to be juveniles, etc., we also have to look at what we have done in terms of I think well-intentioned but misinformed and misguided public policy that helped to destroy our family units, and how that has played out. We cannot, you cannot separate education from economic development from politics from all of what’s happening, we have to look at all of this as interdependent, and it has had some negative impact on our communities. Education is critical, economic development is critical, but when you dis-invest in African American and poor neighborhoods and communities of color, than what you will always get are the negative social consequences of high dropout rates, high teen pregnancy, the crime, the drugs and the life. So we have to check out values and figure out where are we really willing to invest, it’s not a different argument from what Rep. Adams said. If you want to apologize for slavery, where are you going to put your money.
B-Brown: Right. Dr. Toms?
Toms: You make an interesting point, and I think from a leadership perspective, we have to come to grips with the fact that when you are in a democracy, a participatory democracy, it may not be in some people’s interest to represent your interest. That’s the nature of how democracy operates, so what it means is, we have to get very clear on how we can begin to put leadership development pieces in place, communicate engagement pieces in place, not just do it for a season, but put vehicles and tools in place that can reproduce themselves; we can’t be all over the state, some of you can’t be all over the state.
But the question becomes, can we not put our best minds together to get people to understand that if we don’t get involved, if we don’t participate, then there is no accountability. When you look at the schools that you were talking about, Jim, you also start to look at the fact that the accountability comes from the fact that when you go from the district level to the school base, to the department, to the grade level chair, there is no alignment. And then you look at the school improvement plan when you look at the discipline rate, the in-school suspension, you don’t even see it reflected in the school improvement plan.
Take it a step further. If you don’t have a community-based Closing the Gap committee that holds the school and school system responsible, then that’s our gap. So, it’s an interesting piece in terms of the interdependency that goes on there.
B-Brown: We’re going to keep talking in a minute, but I need to close out right now, and we’re going to interrupt the discussion to remind our viewers that we are bringing you this panel discussion from the 2007 meeting of the North Carolina Alliance of Black Elected Officials. Although this is not the end of the discussion, we will have plenty of more time to talk. It is the end of our broadcast program this afternoon. You may view this program in its entirety, plus our discussion with the audience after the show on the Black Issues Forum website at unctv.org/BIF. This content will also be available online as a podcast and as a written transcript. I’m Natalie Bullock-Brown, thanking you for joining us and reminding to be encouraged no matter.
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