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Episode #2307
Models of Power
Q: Although it may not seem so, there are a number of African Americans sprinkled throughout our state working in positions of power and influence. Today we’ll meet two of them who actually share in interest in connection. One is the former First Lady of North Carolina Central University’s law school, and the other is its current dean. We’ll talk to these two models of power next on Black Issues Forum.
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[INTRO MUSIC]
Brown: Hello everyone. Welcome to Black Issues Forum. I’m Natalie Bullock Brown. Some people are well-known because they are often in the public eye, but there are others who are working diligently behind the scenes to make a difference through their positions and network. These are the people who influence the decisions made in boardrooms and courtrooms, and their thinking is often at the root of change that affects all of us. Today you’re going to meet two of them and hear their views on a number of important issues. I’d like to welcome to the program Gwen T. Swinson, former Secretary of Administration for the State under Governor Mike Easley, which made her the second African American woman in the history of the state ever to serve in a cabinet level post. She is currently the Special Assistant for External Affairs at Duke Raleigh Hospital, which is a part of Duke Medicine. We’ll learn more about her title as former First Lady of NCCU’s School of Law in a moment.
But first I’d also like to welcome our second guest, who is currently the dean of the School of Law the North Carolina Central University, Raymond Pierce. Thanks to both of you for being on the show. I’d like to start off with Gwen. I want to start off with this connection that both of you have to Central, but tell us a little bit about what it means to be, or to have been as former First Lady of the law school.
Swinson: Well, I’m not so sure it means I was a model of power.
Brown: We think you were. [LAUGHS]
Swinson: I think more importantly though, what it means to me is that I had a special opportunity during the time in which I was married and rearing my family, to also serve as an adjust professor in the evening division at NCCU School of Law, and I taught torts in the evening program. In fact my second child was born while I was an adjunct professor there at NCCU, so those ties and connections are indeed very personal, special and real for me.
Brown: And tell us a little about how you moved from that beginning at Central and moved on to do all of the work, especially the work you’ve done with Gov. Easley, and where you are now today.
Swinson: I will try to sum it up as best I can. I know that lawyers tend to be longwinded, so give me a moment to summarize quickly. While I was at NCCU as an adjunct professor, I also had the pleasure at that time of serving as the assistant and subsequently associate dean of admissions and students affairs at the Duke University school of law, which is also my alma mater. So during that time I was rearing children—multitasking is the best way one could describe it, while I was also married and working fulltime at Duke.
Subsequently I had an opportunity to reconnect with someone whom I met in 1976 when I was studying for the bar exam. That individual’s name was mike Easley, and as we studied for the bar exam, I learned that he is one of the very first white folks, frankly, who attended the law school at NCCU. He was highly esteemed and admired by his peers at that time in 1976—it seems so long ago when we studied for the bar—and I only had a chance to speak very briefly with him but I never forgot who he was. When he was elected to be the state’s attorney general, I had the opportunity to come back and work for him when I returned form studying and teaching in Japan for a year’s sabbatical when I left the Duke Law School and I worked with Gov. Easley through the two terms he served as our state’s attorney general and subsequently became a member of his cabinet as secretary of administration.
And then almost two years ago now I transitioned now from what has been termed the iron cabinet, the longest serving cabinet I believe in the history of this state, I transitioned back to my alma mater but this time at Duke on the medical side of the university.
Brown: Wow, quite a journey you’ve had. And Raymond, tell us about your distinguished career because you have definitely done some impressive things as a lawyer, civil rights attorney, tell us a little bit about it.
Pierce: Well, I’m relatively new to the state of North Carolina and actually came here to be dean of the law school at North Carolina Central. We love it, my wife and I and our children, it’s been great since we’ve been here, but prior to coming to North Carolina I did have the opportunity to practice law and civil rights, right out of law school I practiced in Little Rock, Arkansas as a civil rights attorney back in the early 80s and left there and went up north to Chicago, and my wife and I were married then, then moved on back to my hometown of Cleveland, Ohio, I was in-house counsel for at that time the LTV Steel Corp., which was at that time one of the largest steel companies in the nation. And enough to go to Washington DC, when the governor became elected president of the United States at that time was governor of Arkansas when I was there, Bill Clinton, so we went off to Washington, DC, and those were fun times, and I was able to have the privilege of being involved in quite a number of matters at the dept of education and also with the White House domestic policy council.
Those good times came to an end of course and so I went back home and get involved in a little politics then later as a partner at a relatively large firm, international law firm, Baker and H___, and life was good there, and North Carolina connection, ______ director of White House personnel during the first term of Bill Clinton and she left to head up a large search firm, and she contacted me to try to talk to me about coming to North Carolina to be the dean of an ____ black institution, and something that I had been somewhat involved in when I was in Washington DC handling some matters for the federal government involving historically black colleges, universities and my wife and I thought about it, and it’s not too far from her hometown in Richmond, Virginia, so here I am.
Brown: Well, initially I understand that you turned down the offer to come to Central, and what changed your mind.
Pierce: Well, I never thought I’d been dean of a law school; I wasn’t looking to be dean of a law school. I was more interested in my practice, but a week after I had been contacted I was in Houston, Texas, and I was actually trying to think of someone that I could recommended to be considered for the position; I thought they were looking for someone that had some national connections that could help raise the prominence of the law school which already had a solid foundation and an outstanding legacy but at the time, Chancellor A___, who was the chancellor of the university at that time, James A___, he was looking to grow the law school, and I’m a business lawyer, and so he wanted to see if I would do that. I was in Houston, Texas, a week later and I thought about it and I said, you know, I did say one day that I want to perhaps manage a historically black institution and demonstrate that our institutions can be run just as well as traditionally white institutions, I mean, we know that up until perhaps the early ’70s historically black colleges, universities, were run by the best of our people, and affirmative action came, and a lot of those folks left to go to the Dukes and the Harvards and the Yales because those opportunities were there for us, and we lost a lot of our talent. Good people are managing those institutions now, but here was an opportunity to bring some exposure that I had to the institution and demonstrate some of the things I had talked about when I was in Washington DC. So I did it.
Brown: Well, I want to just take a moment to congratulate you and North Carolina central on the recent distinction, I guess it came out a year ago, in 2006, the Princeton Review named North Carolina central law school one of the top 170 schools in the country.
Pierce: Yes, yes, thank you. Actually we’ve had two more accolades since then and we also were ranked by the ___ study is one of the most underrated law schools in the nation, and then probably most importantly national jurist magazine and it’s pre-law publication which is the preeminent publication for people who are thinking of attending law school, they released their rankings in a number of areas, and one was best value law schools in the nation and their list of 50 based on tuition, bar passes rate and job placement, and North Carolina Central University School of Law edged out University of Alabama and University of Georgia schools of law to come in number one as the best value law school in the nation which is an incredible tribute to our faculty and our students and the university, but that just means dollar for dollar, pound for pound there is no law school in this nation that does a better job at providing a quality legal education than NCC School of Law.
Brown: Well one of the things when I listen to both of you speak about your careers and the connections that you have there is this running theme of networking and connections and knowing really anything the opportunity to meet and develop relationships with people who end up coming back into your life at a later time and connecting you with new opportunities. How important do you think that is in general for the people who are aspiring to be the next Gwen Swinson, the next Raymond Pierce? This idea of networking, how important is it?
Swinson: It’s critically important, Natalie, and let me also join you, in congratulating dean Pierce on the outstanding work you were doing in your leadership at the North Carolina Central University School of Law, and as I said, based on my own personal connection, I take great pride in knowing the legacy continues under your watch.
Pierce: Thank you.
Swinson: Let me also add in speaking of connections that the current first lady of the school of law at North Carolina Central is actually working at Duke University Medical Center currently.
[OVERLAPPING] [INDISCERNIBLE]
Swinson: And so we have that connection as well, and I’ve had the pleasure of meeting the first lady, Diane, and she does research at one of our research components called the DCRI at the medical center. So again, these connections are endless, and I think we always say, what are there, two or three degrees of separation? Sometimes there are even fewer as we live in the world of technology today. But in particular I also wanted to emphasize that networking is important and it goes on professionally as well as personally. There are all kinds of collaborations and partnerships that actually go on throughout the Triangle and among and between the academic institutions as well as the community colleges, and I will give you an example: there is a collaboration that currently does go on at Duke Medicine; for example, with Lincoln Clinic, and also some parts of North Carolina Central University. And in addition to that, there are all kinds of additional opportunities for our students to work together.
For example, the law students I happen to know this from being on the law school side of things at Duke, the law students at Duke have taken courses and continued to and are having opportunities even now to take classes at your school, isn’t that right?
Pierce: That’s right.
Swinson: And conversely, the same is true, so we welcome that type of opportunity for our students to connect with each other as well, but connecting is important, networking is important, and seizing opportunities to seek out mentors who could provide valuable insights and advice is important.
Brown: I wanted to stay on that idea for just one moment, because something you said in the green room struck me is that anyone can really be a mentor. I think we often think that someone who, I don’t know, is in some high position of power is the type of person you seek out to be your mentor, when you were saying that someone comes and shows that they have faith in you, that they support what you’re doing, they see something in you, then you take up the advantage of the opportunity to say then, thank you for that support, is there something that you could tell me about how I could improve on what I just did? Or whatever the issue is, how do you seize the moment, I guess?
Swinson: You seek opportunities for being mentored. You don’t just sit, I don’t believe, and chime in here too, Raymond, I don’t think we need to just sit and wait for people to seek us out. For example, as I said, I met Mike Easley in 1976. Who would have ever known that I subsequently had this relationship with him, and I too declined his initial offer to serve in his cabinet, as you did the offer to become dean, so that’s something else we have in common.
One never knows, but trust in relationships is critically important in terms of getting the advice and the counsel that you need. I met Dr. Victor Dzau, who is the CEO of Duke Medicine, at Ellis Island when we both received the Ellis Island Medal of Honor, and I struck up a rapport with him, and I started talking about current trends in medicine, and in particular, disparities affecting minorities, and over a period of time we discussed things in such a way that I have come to work now at Duke Medicine. Never thought again, as a lawyer, that I would come to see the medical side as being important, but it’s access to healthcare that Dr. Dzau and I share, and we have a vision. We’re making sure that people in the Triangle Community understand that Duke Medicine is here to serve this community in addition to being of course a world-renowned academic medical center.
Pierce: It’s also important to recognize the reality that there are always opportunities to mentor someone. Now it’s easier of course at a school, even a law school, it’s easy to mentor folks, but you’d just be amazed at how younger people today, particularly in our community, the African American community, have just been hit with so many struggles beyond days of apartheid. It’s amazing how young people look to older people who seem to exhibit some form of stability in their lives as a model, as something different, so any kind word that you can say, any bit of advice, you may not think much of it, but I’ve come to learn, particularly in this role I’m in now, that a young person will take that and run with it, so on one hand yes, be careful what you say, but at the same time, say something, give them some word of encouragement, some piece of advice, some reflection on your life that assisted you to get where you are today, because it means a lot to our young people, and god knows they need.
Swinson: and it’s one of the greatest accomplishments I’ll tell you in my own career, and that’s to have had the opportunity to mentor the students whom I’ve admitted to the Duke Law school. Many of them practice right here in the Triangle today. in addition to that, also, there are organizations throughout the Triangle like Triangle united way, the African American Leadership Initiative, with which I work and we’re particularly interested in focusing in on this issue of mentoring, and I want to talk to you about that later.
Brown: Well, I wanted to ask you, Raymond, given the scope of your experiences, how do you translate those into something that’s meaningful for the students that are under your leadership at the law school. I mean, it’s interesting to me, both of you have talked about this idea of mentoring and how important that is; I mean, but you both seem to be in perfect situations where you can really influence the next generation of African American thinkers and doers. So how do you translate what you’ve experienced into something that they can really take and run with?
Pierce: Well, I think my first responsibility to the students at North Carolina Central University School of Law is to translate my exposure to run a business. I’m a business attorney and I ran an agency in the federal government and I had my own practice at a very large law firm, so I think my first responsibility is to run that law school the best way I possibly can, and to build a team the way we have. We have excellent people at the law school and a faculty and a staff, but I have to quarterback that team, and you have to do that well so you run a very effective and efficient operation, because if it’s not run well, the students will suffer, so that’s job one.
Job two is to help the students understand that the sky is the limit, there are so many things you can do with a law degree in addition to practicing law. So three is to make students understand that there is a responsibility particularly for our minority students, that they have a large responsibility out there, because there are not enough ___ out there with professional degrees. Let’s be honest: some people think attorneys are smart, and we are.
[LAUGHTER]
Swinson: No kidding!
Pierce: Well, we’ve been trained to think in ways that people consider, “Hey, that’s pretty smart,” because we’ve just been whipped into shape by three years of legal education to analyze and to discern and to come up with a conclusion that people think, “Well, that’s smart.” With that comes a responsibility to serve. Unfortunately in this world, our society has so many complexities in it that confound people from the average track ticket to getting child support, to be able to purchase a home, or the slightest legal matter, and so there comes a responsibility to help somebody with the education that you’ve received, and I tell students that. It’s not just about taking your education and going out and making piles of money; sure you want to do that and take care of your bills, but at the same time you do have a responsibility in this troubled society to help somebody.
Swinson: I’m reminded of Mary McCloud Bethune’s philosophy, which is to lift as you climb, and therefore I think what you’re saying, Raymond, is very, very true, and that is to those to whom much has been given and provided, much is expected. And we have a duty and an obligation and a commitment, and I see this also in medical education and in the medical field. There is an opportunity there at Duke for example to do outreach work, to educate people in our community about opportunities for them to live healthier lifestyles. I have a duty to do so as I did when I was working at Gov. Easley’s cabinet, I do the best I can as well to reach out, to give back, and at this instance at Duke Medicine and Duke Raleigh Hospital to help better inform people about opportunities for them to improve their lifestyles and live longer lives.
Brown: Let me ask both of you: what do you think are some of the greatest challenges that our community faces currently? I mean, really, we just want to know, just hear your opinions about just some of the issues that are really pressing our community today, and Gwen, you can start.
Swinson: As I previously stated I’m highly concerned about lack of access to healthcare and lack of sufficient understanding about the system because it is incredibly complex, you’ll agree I’m sure, as it is for lawyers as well, smart or not smart, doesn’t matter. Access is critical. Without access there is very little hope that we can make a difference in the lives of especially these young children who will represent the next generation of leaders, so access is a critically important component. I think also closing the achievement gap, working as hard as we can as I mentioned the efforts of the ___ part of the Triangle United Way, doing all that we can to reach these youngsters, because a child who goes to school and doesn’t feel well or who is unhealthy, is not ready to learn, so those are two things that I would like to immediately state, and I’ll turn it over.
Pierce: Well, I believe hands down the greatest challenge facing the African American community in my opinion is the political will to address the issues that Gwen states. Whether it’s access to healthcare, whether it’s access to quality education closing the achievement gap, eradicating our community of drugs, reducing crime element in communities; there is a high rate of absenteeism for fathers of men in the family of rearing our children whatever the issue it’s the political will to do something about it; I mean there is no way in the world that in the 50s and 60s the advances that the African American community were able to obtain through the leadership of Dr. King and all the countless unnamed individuals there is no way in the world that that would have been able to happen if black folks did not have the political will to do something that about it instead of sitting around thinking somebody’s going to do something about it. No, there was political will to sit on a bus and say “I’m not moving” as Rosa Parks did; it was political will to say after somebody bombed our church in Birmingham, Alabama, that we’re going to do something about it and take on the firehoses; that was political will for Thurgood Marshall to advance all the way to the Supreme Court and people to finance that. It’s going to take political will, the will, the enormous will power of people to say “Look, enough is enough, this degeneration is going on in our communities is going to cease, and we’re going to do something about it.” That’s my thinking about it.
Brown: In the few moments that we have left before we have to close out the show, I’d like to hear from both of you, how do we take steps for, what would you say to our viewers? That they can start doing tomorrow what sort of things do they need to think about today that can move us in the right direction?
Swinson: Let me pick up on the point of political will. Look at what’s going on in Washington DC today. There are folks marching, drove up on buses from around this country to talk about eliminating and eradicating hate crimes. Ten years ago, when Gov. Easley was then serving as attorney general, we formed a hate crimes task force at the North Carolina Central University to address the rash of church burnings that were affecting churches throughout this state. Again as we come full circle, my point is that with respect to political there must also be action, and part of the action one can take is to contact your legislators in the state as well as at the congressional level. Call members of the congressional delegation. Email them. Stay in touch and stay knowledgeable about issues on the internet if you have access to the internet, for example. And also use your feet as well as your head, that’s why people are in Washington today. And knock on the doors of congress people. That’s why they’re there. We elect them; let’s hold them accountable.
Brown: Yes, yes. Raymond, we’ll give you the last word.
Pierce: It starts with self responsibility first of all. You can help anyone if you can help yourself. You make sure your own children are taken care of first of all; make sure you show up at school when they’re having issues with learning. Make sure they’re taking care of their education, doing their homework, and the reality is, we do have to reach out beyond our own small home now and take on the care of other children outside of our homes, you have to be into doing it, it’s about responsibility. I don’t see on the horizon anything coming to help out the black community, and I personally believe that we’ve got some major troubling issues facing us, and again, I don’t care how you define political will or self whatever, it’s mustering that will power that existing once in the 50s and 60s, and I’m old enough to remember that, and bringing it back again, and going out and saying, “Look, doggone it, enough is enough,” and doing something about it, and at the same time, being prepared to do something about it. That is the next generation of attorneys, the next generation of doctors. I’ve seen a busload of students down at Jena, Louisiana, because they wanted to down and ___, sent them down there, when they came back I said, “Okay, now what? Another time one young black man shoots another young black man, are you going to take a busload and go to that too?” Take responsibility for these issues now.
Swinson: Take responsibility for your own health, make sure you stay well and you get yourself checked and stay in touch with your physicians and make sure you’re knowledgeable about what is available to you in the healthcare community.
Brown: Absolutely. I just want to say to both of you, we are so proud of you and we congratulate you on your respective positions. Thank you for being here at Black Issues Forum. If you’d like to learn more about today’s program or obtain a transcript, visit us online at unctv.org/BIF. When you visit, be sure to give us your comments and program suggestions. You can also call us on the BIF-line at (919) 549-7167. For Black Issues Forum, I’m Natalie Bullock Brown, reminding you to be encouraged, no matter what. Have a good one.
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